Breeding Within Family...?

[[Dr. S. Cucumber]]

Hey!

Well, first off; I know what most people will think about what I am going to say next, so please save me some time and don't mention that I shouldn't be breeding without a liscense and that it is irresponsible - I sincerely hope I don't get what I've been getting from other corgi forums, which is completely untrue: I am a bad owner.

I am wondering if it is safe for the puppies to breed my dog with her half-brother. They have the same mother, and she was born on September 26, 2005. He will most likely be born some time around early March. Is it safe to breed within family? Or are they too closely related to breed?

And again, as I've said, please don't lecture me on the responsibilities; I'm a big girl, and I can handle it. We are going to line up places for the puppies to go before even allowing them to breed, if/when we do.

Please don't be offended by my "ferocity" on this subject, I've just been hounded so many times before and been called the worst names possible - which is why I've moved on to this forum.

-Gretchen

[Susan]

I don't know about canines, but with some of our farm animals, we don't breed brother/sister, but do breed grandfather/grandson. As our large animal vet says, when it works, it is line breeding. When it doesn't, it is in-breeding.

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by '

Well, first off; I know what most people will think about what I am going to say next, so please save me some time and don't mention that I shouldn't be breeding without a liscense and that it is irresponsible

All I will say about breeding without a license is you better check the laws on the books as in some places in the US it IS illegal to breed without a license. So check the laws in your area.

I sincerely hope I don't get what I've been getting from other corgi forums, which is completely untrue: I am a bad owner.

Which forums?

I am wondering if it is safe for the puppies to breed my dog with her half-brother. They have the same mother, and she was born on September 26, 2005. He will most likely be born some time around early March. Is it safe to breed within family? Or are they too closely related to breed?

Safe? Best answer I can give is it all depends on the genetics behind the two and what health issues that the grandparents might be carrying. From looking at the website of the breeder you buy your dogs from, I see she has blue eyes occurring in her Pembrokes. You could end up with all blue-eyed puppies, not a quality of life or health risk to the puppies, but not something to be bred to produce either. Heart murmurs, eye problems such as: PPM's, juvenile cataracts and others, hip dysplasia, von Willebrand's Disease are ALL quality of life and health risks to puppies. And IF the parents of the puppies are not tested and cleared for these, then I don't won't to hear - "but they're not a problem." IF you don't test, you don't know whether they are there or not and all of these are quality of life issues for the puppies you will be bring into the world.

Safe? Can depend upon the breed too, IF we were talking Cardigans here, then there are some things I could say unequivocably that no it would not necessarily be a safe way to breed for the puppies. But since these are Pembrokes, then my above response holds.

I will say you are being a bit premature in planning this breeding. Your girl needs to have her hips x-rayed and submitted to OFA (or PennHip) to make sure she is not dysplastic. Eyes need to be checked by an AVCO veterinarian and given a passing CERF exam. von Willebrand's Disease either blood test or the DNA marker test. OFA ratings cannot be given until they are two years of age. These same tests will need to be done on your boy, so that means you'll be waiting two years after you get him and there is no guarantee there will even be a boy in the litter. You will also want to make sure your male is not cryptorchid. IF you are going to breed and do it responsibly, then it is up to you to do the research, ask questions as to what all this means and perform the needed to tests. To not do so, well then you aren't being responsible.

IF you will look in some of the breeding threads you'll find other posts I have done on this topic, some involving the costs of breeding and breeding responsibly. The risks aren't only to the puppies (and this is in any breeding), there are also risks to the male, and to your female. Is her mother a free-whelper and what about her grandmother? Aunts? Or do they need c-sections? You could lose her and all the puppies or just lose her and have an orphan litter to raise. Most probably you will lose puppies. Over time, and this is for Breeders who are active in their breeds and responsible in their breeding practices, the average is 1/4 of the puppies.

And again, as I've said, please don't lecture me on the responsibilities; I'm a big girl, and I can handle it. We are going to line up places for the puppies to go before even allowing them to breed, if/when we do.

There is so much more to being a responsible breeder than lining up homes/"places" before a breeding takes place.

Please don't be offended by my "ferocity" on this subject, I've just been hounded so many times before and been called the worst names possible - which is why I've moved on to this forum.

Your ferocity doesn't offend and I hope my passion, standards, and ethics don't offend you either. I am a Breeder and I also am rescue chair for my regional Pembroke club as well as being a volunteer for the CWCNRT (Cardigan rescue); so I know both sides of the coin and see the ugly on pretty much a daily basis. Would I advise a 1/2 brother/sister breeding to a first time novice - NO, I would not. This is in-breeding (in-breeding, line-breeding and outcrossing all have very clear definitions) and while there "can" be times this would be the correct step to take in a breeding program (which you don't have as of the time of this breeding); it should never be done as a matter of convenience, which will essentially be what you are doing because you own a male and a female.

Debbie

[[Dr. S. Cucumber]]

glencorgi-

i appreciate all of the helpful information!

[gemjunkie]

Line breeding is quite common for some breeds. I've been studying mastiffs for quite some time and 2 Xs removed relatives are sometimes bred (like second cousins or great uncles to neices) although I'm NOT sure of the frequency, I have found it several times with champion lines.

I don't think they'd necessarily recommend 1/2 brother - 1/2 sister from what I've read and I've never seen brother/sister even 1/2 ever offered for sale.

That's just me. I have NO room to tell anyone they are bad at dogs when this little beauty sitting next to me is my first dog in nearly 20yrs...

[milles2]

Because I have a male and female, people always ask if I plan to breed. Hell no! And oh by the way, they are neutered and spayed

I explain they are different breeds (Pem/Cardi) then tell the story of Lulu's breeder who lost her beloved showdog when she went in for a schedule C section to deliver a litter.

I want my dogs to be healthy and live long lives, my job is to now make sure they are safe and happy lives. Quite enough for me!

[Chip's Mom]

I have seen inbreeding in different dogs and from what I have seen along with developing good strong traits, alot of times the bad traits are twice as strong as in the original dogs. Personally, I would not want a pup that was bred from brother and sister or 1/2.

I have a question - Does AKC acknowledge this kind of breeding and can they still be registered?

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by Chip's Mom

I have seen inbreeding in different dogs and from what I have seen along with developing good strong traits, alot of times the bad traits are twice as strong as in the original dogs. Personally, I would not want a pup that was bred from brother and sister or 1/2.

Sigh, I don't really have the time nor did I really want to get into this discussion at this time, but since it keeps going and to hopefully avoid misinformation from being passed along and jumping to wrong conclusions, I'll throw in my 2 cents.

As I said earlier, in a breeding program, there are times when in-breeding, line breeding and out crossing ALL can have their place. The caveat here is a real breeding program. Of the breeders who have posted on GC, I wouldn't consider of those who have posted puppies for sale to have a program. Of the breeders who have posted in general, those with an actual breeding program are a minority, but we've had a few. One has to know their standard and have a working knowledge of it. They have to know their dogs, strengths and weakness, virtues and faults. This is an on going educational course - even after 40 years, Breeders will say they've just learned something new the last time they read it.

When one goes as close as a 1/2 brother/sister breeding or even full sibling, or parent to offspring; one needs to know the whole gamut of what can possibly occur, both good and bad and have a pretty clear idea of what they hope to accomplish in a breeding like this. I'll admit to having done one of these (1/2 siblings). In our case we knew very extended family within the pedigree as to what had been produced - the excellent, the good, the mediocre and the potentially worse case scenarios. Interestingly enough, even tho' they were half siblings on the sire's side and had a grandmother in common on the dam's side, the inbreeding coefficient was not high at all. (There is a formula to figure this.) We knew we could get bad bites, mismarks and fluffies possibly. We did get fluffies, a beautiful show girl and very nice puppies across the board. We owned the stud dog and the breeder (owner of the dam) on this litter was very pleased. Line breeding/inbreeding sets type and characteristics, traits one wants to improve in their dogs/line. In corgis there is a problem with short upper arms - to get better upper arms breeding two closely related specimens with good arm length improves that quality in the offspring. Bonnie is right though, the bad traits are also set too, so one needs to know what faults exist also. Knowledge, experience, skill, purpose are all variables. Convenience is not a reason to do such a breeding.

I have a question - Does AKC acknowledge this kind of breeding and can they still be registered?

Yes AKC does acknowledge and as long as the litter is eligible for AKC registration the puppies can be registered.

Debbie

[nrhareiner]

If the sire is yet to be born you can not say if it would work or not as you have not seen him to know. This is very very important as you will intensfy the qualitys or falts they will have.

Linebreeding or in this case inbreeding can be a very valuble tool if you know what you are doing. First by linebreeding you will set a very specifice Genotype however this can be good or bad depending on what cariteristice are present in the sire and dam.

Also I would never breed 1/2 siblings from the same Dam. Sire is a bit differnt but I will not get into that as it is a bit complicated to explane and most who are not into breding do not quite get it. Not that you could not or would not.

Anyway if you are thinking about linebreeding and have not been breeding for many many years and realy understand what is happening they I would not do it. When linebreeding you really have to cull rothlessly and be very very picky at the stock you use. I have been breeding for over a decade and have very good luck at doing it and I am very carful when I use linebreeding in my program and I also have several really good friends who have also been breeding for 30-40 years and really understand this also.

Heidi