Just keeping track of prices here!

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Freppan

The sweater thing is for outside. What about when I'm at school in the winter? I would like for him to have some extra warmth... unless you really think that it's unecessary?

It doesn't matter that I live in Texas, winters are still very cold. The only difference about Texas is that it rarely snows and that the summers are freaking hot. Sometimes it is in the thirties (F), but it rarely drops below that except during nights in January. It has snowed before, but it rarely happens, and when it does, it usually isn't much.

Yes, I really do think it's unnecessary. I live in the mounatians of Utah. Have lived in Denver, Colorado and Salt Lake City, Utah with corgis also. Other than senior dogs my dogs don't wear sweaters when I take them out. Right now it's 20F here. We have gone for a couple weeks where 20F was our high, if we got to 20.

So no, I really don't think a corgi in Texas needs a sweter.

Peggy

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Freppan

Thanks for reading, guys. Colbycorgi, thank you for your kind words!

Glencorgi, what is wrong with horse and corgi breeders? Is there something I should know that is wrong with them?

Horse people who breed corgis usually don't put as much care into breeding their dogs as they do the horses. They don't do the health tests, they don't breed to the standard, they go the route of two purebred corgis will do. They don't necessarily screen buyers (meaning ask you questions and attempt to match the puppy to the right home). It's pretty much a casual thing and if you can pay what they're asking the puppy is yours.

In the site I gave you in another post they would be considered back yard breeders. Hobby and show breeders are usually the ones that are considered to be reputable breeders.


Peggy

[MyPemCharlie]

Originally Posted by Freppan

Heheh. Notice that it said April 2007. Meaning, that happened a long time ago. She doesn't update there anymore.

Sorry, I did miss that date. Still, she was taking "orders" for the litter before they were born. Filling out an application for a pup is fine, but the advice is still the same...no money down until the pups are born.

[Michael Romanos]

A Corgi would need to live in a extreme cold climate or be confined for long periods to outdoors in very cold weather for the necessity to wear protective clothing against the elements.

Peggy - there is nothing wrong with 'back yard breeders' - there is something wrong with the connotation you place on the term. There are breeders and there are breeders. Back yard can be just another name for 'casual' or 'hobby' breeders. Nothing wrong with those people as a group. But individually there are the poor breeders with dog and breeding management - there are also these among the more serious/regular breeders.

[Freppan]

*Following post is all theoretical, mom still undecided*

I might leave him in when I am gone, but my mom might not let me. She's... eccentric.

Anyway, I have decided to replace the sweater with stainless steel bowls. And I know that you guys are doing a good thing by advising me against a breeder who also breeds horses, but she seems trustworthy enough to me. They come with papers, she has some requirements, and the last litter looked great.

[Michael Romanos]

I would not accept the notion that all horse people are poor dog breeders or even in substituting 'all' for 'most.'

Stainless steel bowls are great -one for fresh water and the other as a food dish.

[glencorgi]

There are some horse people who are also dog people, but by far they are the exceptions among the horse crowd who also produce puppies. There is a purpose to their breeding programs and you are likely to see them in the show rings whether it be conformation or performance or both.

There is a mindset and practices that have gotten so cliche, they have become stereotype. Had several on this forum and just from the wording of the posts one can spot 'em a mile away. Looking at the website you've mentioned, batting 1000.

Puppy alley at horse shows, cross breeding the horsey set popular breeds - corgis to JRT's, ACD's, Border Collies, Aussie - they are pocket change to spend at the vendors at the horse show.

I find a particular irony, even hypocrisy to all the screening, scrutiny, standards and ethics put into their horse breedings, yet with a dog - you have a male and I have a female and let's make puppies. I'm also not fond of the dog as barn accessory mentality either.

They are also the greatest supplier of corgis to our rescue program and make numerous contributions to many others.

Back to you perhaps leaving the puppy sometimes, but not sure if you'll be able to because your Mom is eccentric. 14 years old, still in school; where will the puppy stay while you are at school?

No need to really give you any suggestions or advice, the price is right; you've found the breeder you will buy from. This is pretty much settled. While you've done a pretty good expense estimate, you've left out a lot as well. Vaccinations - will come out cheaper giving them yourself, BUT which vaccination protocol are you going to follow and you need to check TX law as to whether rabies vaccinations must be given by a vet or not. Are you planning on doing any training classes with the puppy? That's another $cha-ching. Vitamins, and other supplements you might want to add - $cha-ching. Grooming products: brush, comb, shampoo for starters - $cha-ching. Monthly eartworm preventative and flea tick protection, both ESSENTIAL in TX - cha-ching. These are basics too. I dropped $10 on a lark on Saturday - dog treats and a picture with Santa (proceeds went to a rescue group) for Bruin. Sunday was another $40 on dog food, that's $50 in two days.

Michael is absolutely right when he said there are breeders and then there are Breeders (capital B mine). Why settle for a breeder when one can go to a Breeder?

Debbie

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

Peggy - there is nothing wrong with 'back yard breeders' - there is something wrong with the connotation you place on the term. There are breeders and there are breeders. Back yard can be just another name for 'casual' or 'hobby' breeders. Nothing wrong with those people as a group. But individually there are the poor breeders with dog and breeding management - there are also these among the more serious/regular breeders.

In the dog world in the US "back yard breeder" or "casual breeder" is not another term for "hobby breeder". Hobby breeders are those who show for a hobby and breed to have dogs to show. They are the ones who do the health tests, etc and are considered to be reputable.

Back yard breeders or casual breeders are much more casual about the whole thing. Rarely do they do any health tests. They often don't even know or care there is a standard of perfection. They don't try to improve with each generation, their goal is just to produce puppies to sell, to make some extra cash.

Words and terms and how they are used do make a difference. There are varing types of breeders and no they are not all equal.

I will agree there are better than average back yard breeders and there are some poor hobby breeders. Which is why one needs to do their homework. Price alone should not be your criteria.

Peggy

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Freppan

*Following post is all theoretical, mom still undecided*

I might leave him in when I am gone, but my mom might not let me. She's... eccentric.

Which is why you crate train. The dog can be safe in the crate when you're not home.

And I know that you guys are doing a good thing by advising me against a breeder who also breeds horses, but she seems trustworthy enough to me. They come with papers, she has some requirements, and the last litter looked great.

It doesn't take a reputable breeder to get AKC papers. Puppy mill puppies, pet store puppies can also have AKC papers. AKC papers are not a seal of approval.

Also now days there are other registeries who don't even care if the dogs are purebred who will issue papers. So make sure they are AKC (American Kennel Club), UKC (United Kennel Club), or CKC (Canadian Kennel Club). The others are not reputable registeries and their papers don't even mean your dog has purebreds behind him.

If your breeder fulfills the things I pointed out in other posts then she might be ok. Ask about health tests, ask about the standard, etc.

Peggy

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

I would not accept the notion that all horse people are poor dog breeders or even in substituting 'all' for 'most.'.

I didn't say "all" I said usually. And unless you are familiar with the horse people in the US who also breed corgis you don't know if it's all, most, usually or just some. I have had quite a bit of first hand experience with horse people who also breed. And yes, usually they don't do health tests, breed to the standard, use limited reg., screen buyers, etc. They are just produing puppies for extra cash.

In fact one person here in Utah was trying to place her puppies at 3 (yes THREE) weeks of age. She told me they could eat pretty well on their own, she was going out of town and didn't want her husband to have to deal with them. Well, they fortunately didn't place and her husband was seen at a horse show three weeks later trying to sell them. Some more responsible corgi loving horse people raked him over the coals for that.

Five weeks later two of these puppies ended up in a pet shop. When I went to see them they were in cages covered in feces and flies.

Yeah, great representation of a responsible breeder huh? And no this is not an isolated case. Debbie and others I know can give you similar stories.

So yes, we do have a basis for our objections. And yes, there can are are horse people who try to do it right, who do the health tests, require pets to be altered, screen buyers, etc. But they are few and far between.

Peggy

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by Peggy

It doesn't take a reputable breeder to get AKC papers. Puppy mill puppies, pet store puppies can also have AKC papers. AKC papers are not a seal of approval.

Or of quality.

Debbie

[KJohnson]

wow. I learned a lot just reading through the thread!
Jim adn I spent a TON of money when we first got Westin.
granted we didn't have ANYTHING for a puppy, but still, we bought a lot of things we didn't need, and didn't get some of the things we should have.
one thing you shouldn't forget.
--a baby gate.--
practically a lifesaver for our house//furniture//carpet.
in our area, puppies go for anywhere from $300-800. so you might not be talking about bad breeders here, just supply and demand.
The way I see it, if you can fall in love with a puppy on site, that's the one for you. if you have no plans on showing it, then someone needs to love it and give it a good home. why not you?

[fogebotom]

Missing----

Cost for spaying or neutering?? In Minneapolis I am told it's about $300-400. My vet does it for about $150. Since that will need to be done as soon as you can, count that in as an initial cost.

How about training classes? Puppy classes will run $65-150, then a basic obedience class will be about the same price.

I agree, any type of registration paper does not validate the quality of the dog.

Horse people--I'm one of them and seriously try to distance myself from the mainstream jerks as much as possible. Though not actively showing right now, I hate going to see the stock horse shows, they are the worst for the puppy alley. I do mostly draft horses and not to say that they are any better, you just don't see it near as much. I so wish that the horse breeders would show as much concern for their dogs as they do for their horses. But then again, when they continue to breed HyPP horses, are they going to show any more concern for OFA, CERF, PRA, or VwD in the dogs? Nope. And it's impossible to talk to these people-they really don't care. I so love taking one of my cardigans to these events and having them sit quietly beside me, walk on a loose lead, and greet people pleasantly. Then explain to those that ask all my requirements, hours of training and that I don't breed for their need, but mine. Oh and then talk about my spay/neuter requirements. Makes for an interesting day to say the least.

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by fogebotom

Horse people--I'm one of them and seriously try to distance myself from the mainstream jerks as much as possible.

Ahhhhhhhh but you Cindy dear, you fall into what I described as horse people who are also dog people. There is a difference as you illustrate in the rest of your post.

Debbie

[fogebotom]

Thank you :0) That's why I think I like the draft people a little more then the stock horse people. Little more concerned about the welfare of their breeds of choice, at least the clydesdale people are.