Shocking Night.. need advice!

[Checkers]

I don't know if any of you will be able to help me here or not but I will describe the events as best as I can and see what we can all come up with. First to re-familiarize you with our set-up. I have Cheyenne, a 10 year old shep mix (approx 50lbs or 22.6 kg) and Checkers the PWC (approx 30lbs or 13.6kg). To give you a little background... Cheyenne is the strong silent type. She has shared her home with several other dogs through the years (mostly rescues) and typically I can get her to behave around most any dog after about 5 minutes of introductions. However, some of the dogs we have kept she will still try to dominate. I'm not sure if that is the right assessment... but if the other dog tries to walk by her (even if the two of them were playing happily just 30 minutes prior) she will curl her lips and growl... and it isn't a joke. She has done this with Checkers before... but the last two times he hasn't backed down at all and they have ended up in a full-out fight. This happened tonight. I was playing fetch with Checkers... the ball went past Cheyenne and when he went to retrieve it (totally not even paying attention to her because he was going for his ball) she growled and then when that didn't work and he bounded past her she went after him. Luckily my husband and I were both right there... I grabbed Cheyenne rather easily (she isn't too hard to control once you have her by the scruff) and my husband had to pull Checkers off of her. They were both completely beyond hearing or seeing us at that point. We scolded both of them (verbally only) and put them both in a "time out" (just to get them away from each other while things cooled off.. not because I think dogs know what time outs are). After about 15 minutes we let them both back out and I stood between them and made sure they both understood they had to submit to me before they were allowed back in the main room with us. I did this just by my own body posture, not through any physical touch. When they both were laying down comfortably and calmly (a matter of a few seconds) we let them back in with the family. For the rest of the evening I kept a very close eye on each of them to make sure they weren't showing dominate type posturing around the other one.

Now for the questions.... why does she seemingly turn aggressive at him just for running by like that? What can I do to prevent that from happening again? These two play together almost every day, eat close to each other with no problems at all.... have even been caught sharing a bowl! Neither has ever demonstrated food or toy aggression with a human. This has now happened twice and while I have broken up more than my fair share of dog fights (tends to happen when you get a lot of strays dropped at your house) I don't want to do it again... especially with my now 5 month old son in the house! Is this something I should try and consult a local behaviorist about or am I just missing a clue. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance... and don't worry, I can take a beating LOL!

-Cheryl

[Michael Romanos]

Hopefully it will just be a oncer - something might have triggered it off that you will never be able to fathom out. It could be pent up frustration and jealousy flowing out. I would feed each separately ie in different rooms or parts of the property, and I would play any inside games individually - with the other not in the same room. But outside the house is different and the dogs will probably treat it as such. Do you give each dog individual attention and affection on occasions and take them out on separate walks on occasions. If not, it would be good to devise a programme. When you have two or more dogs, one usually becomes the boss ( in most cases, the older dog) but the bossiness is usually more controlled. If not you must step in and take a firm stance against the perpertrator ie relay to him'her that their behaviour is not acceptable. On the occasions when I had two dogs together, the only 'war' involved food and a spot of growling in my dishing out affection - so I had to become more even handed and smart.

[CorgiMum]

deleted...

[Jespah]

That's a scary situation for anyone and I'm sure you don't want to have to worry about it happening again, but it may.

Do you always treat Cheyenne as the alpha? She may feel her postiion is threatened by Checkers. Do you feed her before him? You need to treat her as the alpha so she feels secure in her position. I've found with Rupe - he has a bit of an aggressive behavior issue sometimes, that he'll challenge a female that he doesn't know well, maybe a couple of times and if she gives it right back to him, he'll soon decide it's not worth it and stop the challenging. He has a new friend who he runs up to and licks and goes crazy all over then once and a while the two of them go at it like they're going to kill each other. It's all mouthing - but Rupe did a couple of nicks in his ear. We just watch them and try to be calm enough to let them sort it out.
Even though you should treat Cheyenne as the alpha, Michael is right - even when she lifts her lip at him - tell her no. Any behavior like that must be nipped in the bud.
Good luck!

[CeCe]

Cheryl
I have been having problems with my two boys and an aggression issue that has recently cropped up. I have had Oliver since he was 3 months old, so he "ruled" the house. I got Skippy when he was 2 years old, and Oliver was 1 year old. Everything has been great with them until Oliver turned 3. Now I'm dealing with food aggression, room aggression, in or out , my attention etc. Then they turn around and lick each other and lay down together. The alpha issue is out the door for us, as it seems to depend on what the subject is. I have tried an animal communicator, chinese medicine doctor, acupressure, my regular vet, and whatever else. The animal communicator said that a tick bite seemed to be the problem. Also Oliver was attacked and injured at a dog park shortly before this and traumatized by it. I now feed them separately, let them out\in through different doors and use the "no", "leave it" command when they start. (they have both been to obedience school and graduated!) Also have picked up three good books - "The Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson, "The Other End of the Leash" by Patricia B Mconnell, and "Don't Shoot the Dog" by Karen Pryor. I haven't been able to connect with a behaviorist yet, but I have found the incidents to be occuring less and less, by staying on top of them. I guess my thoughts for you is not to panic but keep a close eye on what's happening (I'm sure that's real easy with a new baby!) Maybe it was just one incident; and it may be that Checkers is trying to take over from Cheyenne - at any rate, I have learned there are many schools of thought and you just have to go with what makes sense to you - let us know
CeCe

[milles2]

Wow, I forgot about the door issue! I am being very conscious about keeping Tucker the first to get fed, the first to get treats, Lulu sleeps in her crate but Tuck sleeps on the bed....

I had a freind's Corgi visiting for a few days and I remember he and Tuck had issues about going out the door together. I'll have to watch this more closely as Lulu grows.

I took Lulu for her first walk alone this morning leaving Tucker home alone (for a whopping 10 minutes!). You would have thought I was killing him.

I believe peace was made when I put him in the car and he got to go to daycare while poor Lulu is home alone in her X pen!

[Checkers]

On a daily basis both dogs are treated somewhat equally. My view on this is that I am the alpha... I decide who gets what, when. I tend to put food in Cheyenne's bowl first, but both dogs know not to touch it until I have given the okay. I don't know that separating them at feeding time is a big deal for us because there isn't any posturing or arguing over food going on, even treats I can lay on the ground a foot apart and they will each take one calmly. At this time I see it as a chance to exercise their tolerances of each other.

As for Cheyenne... the snarling is something she has done several times with different dogs. I don't have to avoid taking her places where there are other dogs but I definitely keep a close eye on her when I do and make sure other dog owners know to keep their own dog a couple of feet away. She is not uncontrollably wild around other dogs so I still have quite a bit of control 95% of the time with her... and I always have her on leash to make sure the other 5% doesn't escalate into something I can't handle. She has always been scolded for showing any sign of aggression but it doesn't seem to stop her from doing it again the next time! I also want to note here that she has never ever shown any aggression to people. I can just look at her most of the time and she will lay down.

This morning I did a nice long walk with Checkers to start out the day. I will take Cheyenne a little later. Due to her back issues she only does short walks around the neighborhood now, whereas Checkers gets at least 30 minute walks... so yes, they get walked separately. When I come home from walks now I am going to start making the one that is in the house go lay down somewhere and allow the other to calmly walk in without interrogation from the other. I did that this morning and it seemed to help quite a bit in keeping the excited energy level down. Just upping my own body language seems to be helping today also. I don't expect this to be an every day issue.... but I need it to stop permanently because I don't want my son to accidentally end up in the middle of a suprise tiff between them one day. Not only that but this is a behavior that I do NOT want to be passed on to Checkers. I know Cheyenne learned it from the lab we had when she was a puppy... and I don't want another dog to be this way. I have worked very hard at making sure I got Checkers out and around other dogs by himself for that very reason.

Thank you all for the great suggestions... I will keep them all in mind and see what works best for us!

-Cheryl

[sweetlychee]

I suggest taking Cheyenne to an animal behaviorist before the next time they get into a full fledge fight and hurts badly. I don't think it's Checker's fault even from the beginning because he just wanted to get his ball. I think Cheyenne need to see a specialist.

[Jespah]

Even if you are the alpha, there is an order after you, as in any pack. If Cheyenne was before Checkers - then she is "alpha" to him, and it will still help to reinforce that for her.

[Chip's Mom]

WOW! - I have been reading these posts with much interest as I am doing everything wrong. I have 4 dogs but haven't a clue who the alpha is, last night when I was feeding the 4, Jasmine who usually is put on the deck by herself first so she can eat in peace away from the 2 holligans, got forgotten and was fed last. She stood in line at the back watching the 2 eat and patiently waited for me. (of course I told her she was a good girl) Jasmine is 10 years old. Lady who is 14, is fed in the bathroom with the door shut for privacy. Whoever is at the door first, gets let out first, etc. etc. The only problem I have is when I am playing with Chip and Maybelle. Chip is jealous. If he gets cranky, I quit playing with them so no fighting. I wonder if I should do things differently.

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by Checkers

This morning I did a nice long walk with Checkers to start out the day. I will take Cheyenne a little later. Due to her back issues she only does short walks around the neighborhood now,
-Cheryl

Okay, you have another element in here as well - Cheyenne's health and pain issues that go along with her age. With Checker's tearing about chasing after the ball, she may have snapped to insure he didn't run into her and hurt her.

As to what an alpha is or isn't. Cheryl definitely has the alpha roll in her household, but between the dogs, that is not something we as humans can really decide or determine. Age, or longevity in the home don't necessarily mean anything as to which is the alpha. I predict in by this time next year, Lulu will be the alpha over Tucker in Susan's home. Females generally are the "bosses" in the canine pack.

An alpha just is - it is a presence that commands respect and deference and something some are just born with. It is not something we humans can teach a dog to be, although sometimes an alpha will take a younger one under their paw so to speak and teach them the way. Alphas are not bullies nor or they the ones that start or instigate fights. Those are your alpha wannabes scrambling and trying to elevate their status in a pack. Alphas are the peacemakers. They rule and control with a look or at most a curled lip. They don't back down, but they don't start things either. Once you've seen a true alpha in action, well I am just in awe whenever I see one, it is soooo cool! Our first corgi/a Cardigan b*tch was one and life was much simpler among the dogs when she was alive.

At a club picnic several years ago there were a number of corgis frapping about, playing chase, wrestling, just all over the place. And then this beautiful senior Pem girl decided to take a walk throught the passle of Pemmies. She did nothing but walk through them and the other corgis of all ages and sizes parted and let her have a clear path. I turned to her owner and commented - "now that's a true alpha." She just smiled.

Debbie

[corgimom]

Deb,

Was that senior Pem girl you just mentioned possibly the Queens dog?