What do you feed?

[Mvons]

My dog hated the Eucanuba puppy food we had to keep her on until 6 months. We switched to chicken and rice food because she didn't seem to like the lamb and rice. Chicken and rice is for sensitive stomach and lamb and rice is for sensitive skin. When that company went out of business we found Sensible Choice which we loved the regular food, okay on senior until she turned 15 and had kidney disease. Our Vet said he would have suggested a lower protein for senior food than Sensible Choice. We found natural choice lamb and rice that she liked!

She did great on one protein, one grain food, no preservatives.

I'm upset that so many dog food are adding oatmeal. That is a CHEAP grain, just check the price for humans. Corn is known to cause bloat in large dogs so I wouldn't feed it to our small ones.

Meanwhile check your labels. Dog food change the ingredients (adding oatmeal) and you may not know it, like nature's recipe.

I'll re-read all the labels when our new puppy reaches 6 months to decide on a food, then again when it is a senior. It is just like human food, we have to read the labels each time we buy!

Merrie

[fido]

Hi! We feed Buddy, our 14 month old male Pem, Royal Canin (at first the puppy formula, now the med adult) and supplement with canned pumpkin, sweet potato, green beens, apples, carrots, etc on a rotating basis. For the morning meal he also gets 1 T of organic plain yogurt and for evening meal 1 scoop of Alaskan Bear Treats Kibble Boost (salmon, blueberry, cranberry mix). Based on recent great advice from the forum we've added supplements of Vitamin C and Glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM. Buddy also gets 1x week a meaty bone from our grocery meat dept that I boil for 3-5 minutes. We just ordered timberwolf ocean and 2 of the eagle pack to begin a rotation with the Royal Canin.
So far he has not had a weight issue with our walks and playing with the kids.

[IzFro]

Frodo is raw fed and loves it.

Izzy has had problems since she was a wee little pup with getting sick off foods. She is now on Canidae's All Life Stages, and it has been a lifesaver! It is the first food where her stools are like a normal dogs and not constant diarreah.

Right now Izzy gets 3/4 cup a day plus green beans as treats and sometimes a bit of pumpkin because she likes the taste, lol.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

Dr Nick Cave does not work for Hills. He works for Massey University in New Zealand.

Thank you for clearing that up. Sorry for the mistake. Do you know where he got his training as a dog food nutritionist?

Cave will endorse all dog food approved by AAFCO.

Once before I asked about a list of AAFCO dog foods, as I've not seen one and can't seem to find one. Do you have one?

Just because a food is approved by them doesn't necessarily mean it's a good food. From what I can see they go by minimum daily requirements. Well, like with human food a food can meet the minimum daily requirements and not be good for you.

- they don't know a good product when it stares them in the face.

And some don't know a bad product when it stares them in the face.

Peggy

[Peggy]

Meanwhile check your labels. Dog food change the ingredients (adding oatmeal) and you may not know it, like nature's recipe.

Any dog food company can change the ingredients any time they want to. They have something like 6 mos. to chage the lable. So any food can be changed an you not know it right away.

I'll re-read all the labels when our new puppy reaches 6 months to decide on a food, then again when it is a senior. It is just like human food, we have to read the labels each time we buy!

Puppies don't need puppy food. In fact some, especially the preimum foods have been found to make puppies grow too fast. Many breeders are not feeding puppy foods any more.

Also, seniors don't need a speial formula either. A good adult maintence is good for all stages of life. Think about wolves and other wild dogs, they all eat the same food, not a special deer for puppies and a different one for seniors. Nope they all eat the same thing whatever it is they catch at the time.

Peggy

Merrie[/quote]

[fido]

Peggy--We wish we had been on this forum sooner. We fed Buddy puppy food till almost 9 1/2 months when we saw your post re the problem with puppy food and then we immediately began the switch over to the medium adult food. *
*in regards to my previous post, we feed 3/4 cup at the am feeding and 1/2 c kibble in the evening.

[Michael Romanos]

List of approved AAFCO food - Peggy ask AAFCO through their website.

Minimum standards - Peggy what else can an authority have but minimum standards for qualifying purposes. It is no different to an exam where a minimum pass rate might be set at 50 percent.

I think canine nutritionist experts will disagree with Peggy that puppies and senior dogs don't need more or less of certain vitamins, minerals and nutriants to that of a normal adult dog. It is no use comparing the situation of domestic dogs with those in the wild. The wild dogs don't have choices and they don't usually live anywhere near as long as domestic dogs due to their ood diet, poor shelter and harsh living conditions.

[corgimom]

Production of Hill's protein hydrolysate diet ZD was created because of Dr. Cave's work; I would say he does have a vested interest in Hills and how they do as a company overall.

http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vme/cagl/Team.htm

[Mvons]

Originally Posted by taflar

Also, seniors don't need a special formula either. A good adult maintenence is good for all stages of life. Think about wolves and other wild dogs, they all eat the same food, not a special deer for puppies and a different one for seniors. Nope they all eat the same thing whatever it is they catch at the time.

Peggy

I hope when our future dog is senior in 10 years that the Vets will agree on the senior diet. When our Vet diagnosed our senior with chronic kidney disease, he said he always advises lower protein when they turn 10. The food my Pepper was on was high senior protein (23grams). Though it is interesting that humans aren't advised to have lower protein. There needs to be more research.

The dogs in the wild are consumed by predators when they get the arthritis or kidney disease as only the fit survive, thus the need for pets to have food with special ingredients for the aging bones/cartilage/organs as they live far longer than in the wild.

I do like glucosamine in the senior food because it helped our Pepper to not have stiff hind legs. I noticed her coat wasn't as nice with the lower fat in senior, but that could have been her age. I think the adult lite is even lower fat.

Merrie

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

List of approved AAFCO food - Peggy ask AAFCO through their website.

Why don't they have one posted on their website? One would think they would and I did look. I shouldn't have to write and ask them.

Minimum standards - Peggy what else can an authority have but minimum standards for qualifying purposes. It is no different to an exam where a minimum pass rate might be set at 50 percent.

I understand that but just because something meets minimum standards doesn't necessarily make it "good" or "best".

I think canine nutritionist experts will disagree with Peggy that puppies and senior dogs don't need more or less of certain vitamins, minerals and nutriants to that of a normal adult dog.

They can disagree all they want, that won't change my mind. The people I belive are those who have RAISED many dogs over many years, generations. Not just 8 dogs or so in a limited time feeding trial. The nutrisionists have "book learning" not practical experience. They don't raise dogs for several generations.

What breeders (meaning reputable/responsible) have found is that puppy food has been causing different growth rates between the muscles and bones in puppies. Making one grow faster than the other. This can cause problems for puppies like panosteitis. It's primarily found in large breed dogs (hence the "large breed puppy foods") and it has been popping up in corgis and other breeds too.

So, IMO, it's wise to not use puppy foods for puppies.

Puppies eat more than adult dogs do so they will get the added vitamins that they need through the diet. I have raised my last two litters on adult maintence food, they didn't get any puppy formula foods at all. They are not lacking in health, size or anything. They have just as much or even more bone substance as any litter I raised on puppy food.

And as for seniors, there have been studies done and no I don't have any handy that say seniors don't need lower protein foods.

I have dogs here currently from age 2 to almost 16. I have never used senior formulas on my dogs and have found my seniors have done just fine. If they need extra vitamins, which they usually don't, I can add those. I do add a glucosomine/msm supplement though. And dog foods don't have enough glucosomine to make a difference anyway, so buying a food with that in isn't ecnomical. (Meaning you're paying more but not getting the benifit you're paying for.)

It is no use comparing the situation of domestic dogs with those in the wild. The wild dogs don't have choices and they don't usually live anywhere near as long as domestic dogs due to their ood diet, poor shelter and harsh living conditions.

It's just as useful as any comparison that you make. While they don't have lives as long, they do live healthy lives in the time they have on the diet they eat. Their puppies are not harmed by not having specical foods. If they were they'd have gone extinct. So must be some value to the comparision.

IMO, you have not raised enough dogs to be an "expert" in feeding a dog. IMO, the true experts are those who have and do raise dogs for many years and several generations of dogs. Those breeders have learned and delt with many things over the years. Feeding, medical, training, etc. And they are the ones that continue to learn from many sources. Not just one person or one study. And they will change their methods as they learn new things.

I used to feed puppy foods, and as I have learned over the years, I have changed my ideas and my feeding methods. I countiue to learn, but I cannot agree with your "canine nutritional expert". IMO, he has not done enough practical research.

Peggy

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Mvons

I hope when our future dog is senior in 10 years that the Vets will agree on the senior diet. When our Vet diagnosed our senior with chronic kidney disease, he said he always advises lower protein when they turn 10.

Ok, vets are only given about one quarter year (half a semester) on nutrition. And those classes are often taught by people from dog food companies. Mostly from Hills. And they make the different formulas so of course they teach and promote them.

Again, those that have done independent research or vets that have gone on to study nutrition more have changed their minds on the protein thing. There is nothing to "prove" that a lower protein diet is needed for seniors.

The dogs in the wild are consumed by predators when they get the arthritis or kidney disease as only the fit survive, thus the need for pets to have food with special ingredients for the aging bones/cartilage/organs as they live far longer than in the wild.

There is not enough glucosomine in the dog foods to benifit your dog. If you want your dog to benefit from joint supplements you'll need to add them to the food yourself.

I think the adult lite is even lower fat.

It is and fat is needed for good coats.

Peggy

[corgimom]

Originally Posted by taflar

I understand that but just because something meets minimum standards doesn't necessarily make it "good" or "best".Peggy

Sort of like School cafeteria foods; was meeting standards, but now they are making changes and improvements, because they are realizing that a lot of what they are feeding students is not healthy for them in the long run.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by corgimom

Sort of like School cafeteria foods; was meeting standards, but now they are making changes and improvements, because they are realizing that a lot of what they are feeding students is not healthy for them in the long run.

Right! Exactly like that. Those meals met the minimum daily requirements but wasn't healthy long term. That's exactly what I'm saying.

Peggy

[Dillydoodle]

Peggy,
I have to say i was surprised to learn how little nutrition was taught to vets. sounds like off topic, but it ties in...many vets do not understand feline diabetes either... My eldest kitty Misty ( the one who passed in december from failed kidneys- NOT from her diabetes) was diabetic and insulin dependent for 5 yrs- she was well managed because i went against my former vet and decided to do home testing and change her diet. The diet change alone made a significant difference in her over all health, i took her off the hills science diet w/d dry and fed her canned wellness and other brands with 10-% or less carbs and she was nearly in remission several times. It certainly gave her more time than she would have had if she had been "treated" the vet's way. I did learn that Diabetes in cats and dogs is studied in as part of one 20 minute lecture of outdated information! Well I did my own research on it and read countless articles and made my own decisions based on what i had read.. I am thankful that i found a new vet that agreed with what i was doing, and was happy to support me and Misty.
My point in this is that I think it is important to take the time to research the food your are giving to your pet, just becuase it meets some minimum requirement or that your vet says " feed X food" it never hurts to do your own researching. I want my pets to live out healthy happy lives and food plays a big part of it.
Emilie

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Dillydoodle

I have to say i was surprised to learn how little nutrition was taught to vets.

I find it rather appalling since we all know how much diet has to do with good health. For animals and people.

The diet change alone made a significant difference in her over all health,

I can belive that. My husband is diabetic and what he eats makes a big difference. I would expect it to be the same for animals.

... I think it is important to take the time to research the food your are giving to your pet, just becuase it meets some minimum requirement or that your vet says " feed X food" it never hurts to do your own researching. I want my pets to live out healthy happy lives and food plays a big part of it.

Right, that's what I'm trying to say. Don't just belive something because someone on a list or formum says they got the information from an expert. Go check it out for yourself. Experts aren't always right as you've found sometimes they're working with outdated information.

I'm glad to hear you were able to find a vet to work with you and that you were able to help your cat!


Peggy