Puppy food- safe?

[Michael Romanos]

That's a lot of gobbly nonsense, Debbie. Dwarfism and the other things you mentioned have nothing much to do with it and in no way are precluding factors to super premium or premium general dog food being recommended.

The marketing aspects are not what we are talking about. It is what is understood by the term "all life stages' in relation to AAFCO stamdards and what companies who produce these foods are implying. ProPlan are not out on a limb in this regard.

By the way, AAFCO standards are very soft/minimal and if companies fails to produce complete diets in not meeting the standards, then they are pretty poor outfits.

[Freppan]

I did not mean to start a fight or argument, I'm very sorry. <backs away>

[fogebotom]

Actually dwarfism does play a roll in the growth and structure of a dog and should be taken into consideration when feeding a puppy. Consider that a corgi puppy carries as much weight on 1/2 or 2/3 of the leg length as a sheltie or heck, even a small collie. Puppy food in many cases, which I have had one case, can cause excessive growth leading to growth plate issues. Yes, I agree that the developments of the new improved puppy food additives do show benefits to many dogs.

BUT it is up to the individual who owns the dog to seek advise, weigh the options and do what is best by their own dog. I suggest that we all take a step back and realize that this is a democratic list with everyone having a right to their own ideas and opinions. Attacking someone for their beliefs, especially when they show you why they do what they do, is so low it's almost not worth a comment.

I suggest we use the following creed----we need to agree to disagree agreeably.

With that said, I stand by my own beliefs that puppy food has a minimal place in my care program and that the quality of the adult food I use is more then adequate for my puppies. Food for thought now-knowing many dane, wolfhound and GSD breeders-most if not all, do not feed a puppy food, even a large breed one.


Cindy and the crew at Foggy Bottom

[MyPemCharlie]

Originally Posted by Freppan

I did not mean to start a fight or argument, I'm very sorry. <backs away>

Don't worry Erin. You didn't start this argument, as much as throw a log on the same old and tired smoldering fire. The archives here show this same disagreement on any thread related to dog feeding.

Canine nutritionists, veterinarians, and breeders will never agree on what's the best food for a specific dog. Food studies over time will show widely different results. It's a hotly debated topic with lots of strong opinions and no definitive answer.

As Cindy said, we should be able to respectfully debate an issue on different sides without turning the discussion into a battle which no one wins.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

Peggy - you should know that there is a big difference between puppy formulated food and adult food that is termed suitable for all life stages.
For example let's take Nestle Purina's super premium dog food ProPlan. They produce adult food suitable for all life stages as well as puppy and senior products. The adult food meets and exceeds the minimum AAFCO requirements for puppies and for seniors (aged over 7 re Corgis). But their puppy food and their senior food FAR EXCEED the AAFCO standards.

And that is exactly the reason I don't feed puppy food. Have you ever heard of Panosteitis? It's thought to be caused by feeding a food that makes puppies grow too fast. IE= PUPPY FOODS!

And yes, I have heard of corgis with it. It's been mentioned on several of the corgi email lists. And what are people told, to get thier puppies off puppy food right away.

So, IMO, it's better for my puppies to grow slower and to eat an adult formula food. It meets their needs, the AAFCO says it does. So it's ok for them to eat. They don't need a food that EXCEEDS AAFCO standards.

The ProPlan puppy food has components that the adult food does not have such as DHA, and has higher levels of protein, fat and calcuim.

Exactly, and the higher levels of protein, fat and calcium are not necessarily needed by puppies. Why do you think they've started to make "large breed puppy foods"? Because the large breeds were having problems with the regular puppy foods. Growing too fast. I think I've brought up these pionts before.

ProPlan very strongly recommends its puppy formulated food for puppies and its senior formulated food for seniors even though its adult food can legitimately state "suitable for all life stages." Now do you get it.

What I get is "ProPlan very strongly recommends". I don't care what ProPlan recommends. They are in the business to sell foods. Of course they are going to recommend their various forumlas.

I have raised dogs since 1980. From birth to 16 1/2 years old. None of my dogs have eaten puppy food past 6 mos. old at the latest. They have done well on what I've fed them. My last two litters have not had any puppy food at all and they (as I've said before) are not lacking in bone, size, growth or health.

If we are talking about the best diet and nutritional value for a normal pup, we are talking puppy not all life stages.

Yup, and I feed my puppies and dogs what I think is best for them, based on MY research from experts I respect. Those experts ARE NOT dog food companies. They are breeders, my vets, pro handlers, and such. People who have hands on experinces with raising, training, treating, and studying dogs and dog foods.

No matter what you say I am not going to buy into your theory. I think mine is better. I've raised more dogs than you have, I have seen the results over the years and I am pleased with the results I'm getting. I don't feed puppy food or a senior food and my dogs are doing just great, thank you anyway.

Peggy

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Freppan

I did not mean to start a fight or argument, I'm very sorry. <backs away>

Not your fault. Michael tells us we're wrong every time we try to say what has worked for us and what we recommend. He doesn't seem to think there is more than one right way to feed a corgi.

I offer my way and if it makes sense to people then they can take the advice. If not well, I offered. It's up to each and every dog owner to do their own research and do what works for them.

Don't take it personally. I'm just not going to let him keep saying I'm wrong without defending myself.

Peggy

[Michael Romanos]

Peggy - your arguments on this subject are fatally flawed. For example you state that puppies don't need the particular additives that makes puppy food absolutely suitable and vital for normal puppies.
I don't think you have quite grasped the fact that AAFCO standards, as comprehensive as they are, are set low and no quality producing dog food company would stick to such low minimum standards.
Puppies need to have daily intakes of calcuim that far exceed AAFCO minimum standards.
Watch this space because dog food can still develope further and the canine nutrition scientists will discover some other necessary additives to a dog's daily diet for health benefits.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

Peggy - your arguments on this subject are fatally flawed.

Michael, I am sick and tired of this arguement. If my argument were so flawed then why are my dogs, not to mention those of many other breeders who do the same thing, just fine?

For example you state that puppies don't need the particular additives that makes puppy food absolutely suitable and vital for normal puppies.

I didn't say that. What I said was that they didn't need a food that EXCEEDED the requirements. An ALL life stages food meets the requirements. The AAFCO standards say that it's just fine for all life stages or they wouldn't be able to lable it as such.

I don't think you have quite grasped the fact that AAFCO standards, as comprehensive as they are, are set low and no quality producing dog food company would stick to such low minimum standards.

What I understand is that their standards are minimum standards. Meaning the mininmum needed for the dog. You can go over that but you don't need to. So what I understand is that if a food meets the minimum requirement it's just fine to feed. You don't necessarily need to go over all the time or at all.

Puppies need to have daily intakes of calcuim that far exceed AAFCO minimum standards.

Says who?

Some puppies have gotten bone spurs due to excessive calcium.

Watch this space because dog food can still develope further and the canine nutrition scientists will discover some other necessary additives to a dog's daily diet for health benefits.

Oh, I have no doubt that canine nutrition may change in the future. And as I learn more I may change my mind on things. As I said at one time I did feed puppy formulas. It's what I've learned that has caused me to change my mind.

As I said before what I do works for me and my dogs. And I know other breeders who follow the same practices and don't feed puppy foods. If feeding a puppy food works for you great. I prefer not to and your arguments aren't going to change my mind.

Peggy

[Michael Romanos]

Peggy - you are misreading me. I never said daily calcuim over the recommended MAXIMUM, I said calcium in excess of the (AAFCO) minimum.
You can feed YOUR puppies with adult food though I would never recommmend it for normal pups, but just remember that food producers who follow AAFCO practices and who produce food termed " suitable for all life stages" strongly recommend that their puppy designated food be given to puppies and not the 'all life stages' adult food.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

Peggy - you are misreading me. I never said daily calcuim over the recommended MAXIMUM, I said calcium in excess of the (AAFCO) minimum.

And you are misreading me too. I also did not say over the MAXIMUM I said there was no need to feed the supplements (calicum we're talking here) in excess of the requirements. Meaning minimum requirements. We were not talking about maximum requirements at all.

You can feed YOUR puppies with adult food though I would never recommmend it for normal pups,

You're saying my puppies aren't normal?

but just remember that food producers who follow AAFCO practices and who produce food termed " suitable for all life stages" strongly recommend that their puppy designated food be given to puppies and not the 'all life stages' adult food.

And as I said I don't care what producers say. Of course they will say a puppy food is better, otherwise why make it? The different formulas were created not as a need for the dogs but to fill a marketing request. People were feeding thier babies "baby food" so they wanted a "puppy food" for their puppies. The dog food companies complied. Saw a market for differernt life stage foods and created them, active, preformance, senior, ect. It doesn't mean there is a need for all those foods or that a dog in that stage absolutly needs them but that they are a choice.

My choice is a food for all life stages.

People make thier own baby foods too and their baby's do just fine with peas mashed by mom and not by the Gerber company. It doesn't mean one mom is wrong or one is superior to the other. It just means that there is more than one RIGHT way to feed a baby, be it human or dog.

My way works. There are many other breeders who do it also. And their puppies are "normal" too. It's not WRONG and it's not WRONG for me to offer this advice as an option for someone with a puppy. They can read my advice, and your advice and make up thier own minds.

Peggy

[glencorgi]

Michael, Michael, Michael ... You are Madison Avenue's dream come true.

I believe it was some of us who pointed out in earlier threads on this subject that AAFCO gave the minimum requirements, it is nice to see that you've finally grasp that reality. You caught on to Dr. Dodd's vaccination schedule about a year later after I had posted it too. Sometimes you are just a little bit slow, but you eventually catch up.

I'll be sure to pass along to the lady in Alaska who just had surgery on her corgi puppy's legs for premature growth plate closure that dwarfism and feeding hot foods which accelerate fast growth is just a bunch of gobbley-gook - oops sorry gobbly nonsense, make sure my terminology is correct; I'm sure her vet will find that interesting and how wrong he is to advise to discontinue feeding puppy food.

Let me do a little translation for ya' - super premium that means your Innova and California Natural, your EVO and Wellness, Merrick, Solid Gold - high end priciest foods

premium general dog food - those would be your ProPlan, Premium Edge, some of the Purina formulas to name a few.

Now guess what, I can take some of the all-life stages formulas of the "super premium foods" and compare the labels to some of the premium general food puppy stage formulas and ..... the all-life stages of some of the super premium foods will be the same, if not exceed in some cases, as some of the puppy formulas of the premium general foods. We've got a heck of a lot more foods to choose from in the US than there is in NZ. About every dog show I go to or every time I visit the specialty pet supply store, there's a new food or line on the market and I'm an avid reader of dog food labels.

Another interesting development in the pet food market here in the US at least, is that many of the super premium brands are coming out with lines that emulate diets of canines in the wild to a fashion.

The best food to feed one's dog/puppy? The one that works for you and your dog/puppy.

Debbie