Ruby squatted and peed on the dining room rug

[Cardiguy]

About 1 hr after I walked her this morning, my wife call me and tells me that she caught Ruby peeing in the dining room. My wife grabbed her by the scruff, yelled, hit her (not hard) and put her nose into the pee and then ignored her and then she left for work. Ruby has never done this before and we think it is a reaction to the fact that we gated her upstairs yesterday for about an hr in the morning while a contractor was doing work downstairs and about 4 hrs at night while the trick and treaters were out. Could this be a spite job by Ruby? I am wondering how I should react to Ruby when I get home as I understand dogs really cannot connect the past and live in the present. My inclination is to be cool to her for awhile. Any ideas on what to do to prevent this in the future.

[Chip's Mom]

Cardiguy

First of all I would have Ruby checked for a urinary tract infection if this is way out of character for her. Secondly, grabbing, yelling and hitting Ruby is only going to scare her to death and not solve the problem. Professionals say that a dog does not do things for spite. When you go home tonight, if it was me, I would behave exactly as I do any other day as you are correct dogs cannot connect the past with the present. Please do not be cool to her for awhile - the only thing that is going to do is confuse your dog and it may damage the trust and relationship you and your wife have with Ruby. As it is now, Ruby may be afraid of your wife. How old is Ruby?

[MissGambler'sMommy]

In years of reading and researching Corgis, I easily recall the repeated themes, and one is that Corgis do not take punishment well. Your Corgi probably was letting you know that he had issue with what all was happening around him, especially if he let you catch him. I had a friend once whose cat began urinating in front of her, she would never find spots, the cat would wait to do it when she was being watched. When she got around to take the cat to the vet, the vet discovered a urinary/bladder problem and told her that the cat urinating in front of her was it's way of telling her "I am sick", the cat was treated and it's food was switched and it never happened again. They are funny creatures, they do communicate, and it is up to us to figure it out. On the other hand, your dog could just have had a full bladder.

[sweetlychee]

First of all, it's not good to stick any dog to smell at their poop or urine. Sorry. That's my take. When Milo was bad and he peed/pooped inside the house, we grabbed him and took him to the spot so he could see it. We never sticked his face in it because it would be too cruel. Then we say bad and tell him not to do it again. He would often feel ashamed.

Did Ruby felt ashamed or bad? Did she bow her head down? She might be doing it out of spite. That's a higher possibility.

[glencorgi]

Unless caught in the act, taking a dog back to the "scene of the crime" doesn't do any good. (Sweetlychee you've got a lot to learn about normal dog/canine behaviors, relationships and means of communication.)

Since this was a way out of character thing for Ruby, there is a number of "could be" explanations. Could be a stress reaction from yesterday with the "intruders" of the workmen and the trick or treaters last night. Could be she has an urinary tract/bladder infection. First rule of thumb when an out of the ordinary behavior occurs is to rule out any medical cause. I'd keep a close eye on her for one of those, just in case. IF there are more accidents, then a trip to the vet would definitely be in order.

When you get home tonight, greet her and treat her like nothing happened, (in her frame of reference of time, nothing did) and just behave normally.

Anthromorphosizing - projecting human emotions and feelings on our dogs is not in their best interest and is often a source of problem behaviors. Things like this: "He would often feel ashamed. Did Ruby felt ashamed or bad? Did she bow her head down? She might be doing it out of spite. That's a higher possibility." Dogs don't feel these emotions the same way (if at all) the way humans do. Fans of Cesar Millan or those looking to him for answers with their dogs should realize this.

Debbie

[Cardiguy]

Originally Posted by Chip's Mom

Cardiguy

First of all I would have Ruby checked for a urinary tract infection if this is way out of character for her. Secondly, grabbing, yelling and hitting Ruby is only going to scare her to death and not solve the problem. Professionals say that a dog does not do things for spite. When you go home tonight, if it was me, I would behave exactly as I do any other day as you are correct dogs cannot connect the past with the present. Please do not be cool to her for awhile - the only thing that is going to do is confuse your dog and it may damage the trust and relationship you and your wife have with Ruby. As it is now, Ruby may be afraid of your wife. How old is Ruby?

Ruby is 5. I and my wife were under the impression that grabbing the scruff is symbolic to what a mom does to her pups, although I could be all wrong on that. My wife is a real animal lover and her "discipline" is at most very mild. I will not be cool to ruby when I get home as she will not make the connection.

[dcole]

Hey Cardiguy,

I second Bonnie's suggestion of getting Ruby checked for a urinary tract infection. Although I have never witnessed it in my dogs before, when my old cat first came down with an infection, she made a point of coming into the room where we were sitting, squatting and peeing in front of us. Something she had NEVER done before. It was her way of asking us for help.

-Debi

[Chip's Mom]

Cardiguy - that is an excellent decision. I don't know much about the scruff of the neck thing but I do know that corgis do not respond well to negative discipline. I would watch her closely for a URI. I will add that I am not a fan of Cesar Milan. Hope this is a one time incident.

[Chip's Mom]

Sweetlychee:

One thing that I have learned through the years with my dogs is that I want them to think I am the greatest person in the world. I would not want them to ever be afraid to come to me when I call them - it may save their life if they learn to come the first time they are called - if I grabbed Chip with my hands and yelled at him - would he come to me the next time I call him to come? I don't think so. Whenever Chip had an accident in the house, it was my mistake because No. 1 I wasn't watching him closely enough, No. 2 I didn't take him out when I should have so I just picked him up and took him outside for a walk about and when I couldn't supervise him, he was in his playpen with puppy pads.

[Dillydoodle]

I agree that hitting or rubbing a dogs nose in pee or poop does nothing, however I DO believe in a GENTLE grabbing of the scruff ( firm but not twisting or causing pain, just enough of a grab to let them know that you are displeased). This is the ONE thing that means the most to Dillon- when it is done he knows he has done something that is unacceptable to me. I use it sparingly so it doesnt lose it's effectiveness. THe same thing for me with the word "NO" I use it sparingly so it has also remained very effective in communicating displeasure to Dillon.
I agree that if this happens again with Ruby-That I would take her to the vet to rule out a UTI or bladder infection.
Emilie

[milles2]

I read in a dog training book that there is a 3 second rule: If you don't catch them in the act or within 3 seconds (count one potato, two potato, three potato.. and get an idea for how much time this actually is) they won't know you are reacting to a specific behavior.

I pretty much live by this.

With both Tuck and Lulu I actually cought them in the act of pottying in the house. I would yell "nooooo", pick them up and run them outside. Put them down on the grass/potty spot and say "go pee" or go potty. When they did I would say (with glee!) "good boy"/girl. Tucker actually kept peeing one time mid air. I left a trail!

i also read an article once about how after dogs mature, owners stop saying "good boy" when the dog potties outside. And that it is a good idea to always say "good boy"/"good girl". SO I do. I swear people think I am nuts because everytime (as long as it's outside somewhere) I'm always saying "good boy/good girl with great glee. I sound like an anal-retentative mother.

But so far so good!

Now.... as far as attributing human emotions or meanings to their behavior.... Sometimes it is really hard not to. I swear up and down Tucker is manipulative. He knows exactly what to do to get what he wants. I swear sometimes he thinks, has a plan, and executes it.

I will go to my grave swearing that our DQ in his first Rally-O trial when he peed on the organge cone 2 steps into the match was his way of commenting on how much he dislikes Rally-O.

I had walked him around for at least an hour before and he peed several times. I had him in the potty area minutes before it was his turn. And he still lifted his leg in the ring. Manipulative weasel!

[Cardiguy]

Originally Posted by glencorgi

Unless caught in the act, taking a dog back to the "scene of the crime" doesn't do any good. (Sweetlychee you've got a lot to learn about normal dog/canine behaviors, relationships and means of communication.)

Since this was a way out of character thing for Ruby, there is a number of "could be" explanations. Could be a stress reaction from yesterday with the "intruders" of the workmen and the trick or treaters last night. Could be she has an urinary tract/bladder infection. First rule of thumb when an out of the ordinary behavior occurs is to rule out any medical cause. I'd keep a close eye on her for one of those, just in case. IF there are more accidents, then a trip to the vet would definitely be in order.

When you get home tonight, greet her and treat her like nothing happened, (in her frame of reference of time, nothing did) and just behave normally.

Anthromorphosizing - projecting human emotions and feelings on our dogs is not in their best interest and is often a source of problem behaviors. Things like this: "He would often feel ashamed. Did Ruby felt ashamed or bad? Did she bow her head down? She might be doing it out of spite. That's a higher possibility." Dogs don't feel these emotions the same way (if at all) the way humans do. Fans of Cesar Millan or those looking to him for answers with their dogs should realize this.

Debbie

Thanks Debbie for the input. If this happens again within a short period of time, I will definitely take her to the vet. As opposed to spite, could it be that she feels a need to "mark" due to yesterday's "intruders"? Ruby was caught in the act and my wife immediately reacted by grabbing her scruff. I was under the impression that grabbing the scruff as a correction was appropriate. Are we off base in grabbing her scruff as a correction and if so is there any physical interaction done as a correction or just a loud "no"?

[Jespah]

This is a very tough issue. I am having the exact same problem with Jemma. Unfortunately, Riley had accidents in the diningroom and no matter how well a carpet is cleaned, dogs will smell the urine. Jemma has had "accidents" there when I'm not home, even though I had created an area for her to use during her transitional house training phase. The little begger actually peed in front of me in the dining room the other day. I was able to forcefully tell her "no" and picked her up and put her on the paper she is allowed to use.

Glencorgi is right, about projecting human feeling on our dogs. I think Jemma just really had to go, and she is still getting used to not running around outside and squatting whenever needed. I also believe that Corgis don't do well when they are corrected in loud or more physical ways. Sometimes we react before we can catch ourselves from sheer emotion or frustration - I've been guilty too.

Jemma has been doing much better with her house training and it's really about me developing patience! But, I can relate to Susan and the feeling that we are all being manipulated and controlled by very tiny little critters sometimes!

[Shelly]

Originally Posted by dcole

Hey Cardiguy,

I second Bonnie's suggestion of getting Ruby checked for a urinary tract infection. Although I have never witnessed it in my dogs before, when my old cat first came down with an infection, she made a point of coming into the room where we were sitting, squatting and peeing in front of us. Something she had NEVER done before. It was her way of asking us for help.

-Debi

My Reba who was 8 when we adopted her, never had indoor potty problems, but once she did come in and squat and hardly pee at all, but it took awhile, and I saw some pink in it (our carpets are light beige), so I took her in and sure enough, bladder infection.

By the way Debi, Jesse says hi to bro. ~Shelly

[glencorgi]

A scruff grab is different than hitting and can be an effective corrective "tool," so no that wasn't off base. Your wife handled it, no need for you to act further.

The marking explanation is a possibility. Best thing to do now is just keep an eye on her, putting the pieces together as to a why isn't always easy.

As far as ascribing human emotions to dogs, well let's look at the corgi breeds. They are smart, bright and clever dogs. They had to be in order to do the jobs around the Welsh farmstead they were valued for. Take a dash of independent thinking and ability to work on their own mixed with a splash of desire to please their humans (biddability/trainabilty), stir in toughness to move a cow or guard the hearth with a few extra ingredients mixed in and we have our corgis. Now, they do have very expressive faces, but a cower or a sideways glance when Mom or Dad yells at them is the same reaction they would have if they had crossed an alpha member of a canine pack. It isn't expressing guilt or shame. Dogs live in the moment for the most part. Manipulative? My jury is still out on that one too. But generally they are like the 5 year old child that wants to do what they want to do now and if they don't like something, they aren't going to be real cooperative about it. Let's look at Susan's Tucker's attitude towards Rally. He doesn't like, not something he enjoys. Susan says: "I will go to my grave swearing that our DQ in his first Rally-O trial when he peed on the organge cone 2 steps into the match was his way of commenting on how much he dislikes Rally-O." Now did Tucker go into this with the plan, if I pee on this orange cone it will get us DQ'd and we'll be out of here? Or was it, I hate this stuff and I'll show what I think about it? Likely the latter as that was in the moment.

What we need to think about here is who is making a conscious/unconscious choice to give in and are we have let ourselves be programmed. Let's take Miss Gambler in the kitchen as an example. All the wonderful smells begin wafting through the house and there she is right by the stove. Conditioning results in her human sharing whatever it is that has been cooked up. Now, is this manipulation on Miss Gambler's part? (And yes I know those eyes and have given into them myself ) or, human acting without thinking? All kind of interesting and I'm merely musing, not finger pointing at all. I assure you there are 4 fingers pointing back at me if anyone feels that is the case, cause I'm as guilty as the next in the spoiling department.

Debbie