Tail docking of Pems

[Michael Romanos]

Debbie brought up the subject of the tail docking issue associated with Pems.

At the last count I did, there were only six countries in the world that banned the tail docking of dogs and three others that had a partial ban on tail docking. This, at present constitutes a small anti-docking situation but I admit that other countries could follow down this path. I feel it is unlikely that in New Zealand there will ever be a total docking ban because of our large farming and hunting communities.

A major reason for Pembroke Corgis having their tails docked was to further distinguish Pems from Cardis. But the two breeds have been kept firmly apart for many years and this is no longer a particularly valid reason for docking a Pem's tail.

Some Pems are born tail-less and I suppose if Pems had to have there tails kept intact, then in the showring there could be the spectacle of tailed and tail-less Pems competing against each other.

Rather that ban tail docking, I'd like decisions of this nature to remain with the two international dog organisations and for the best method of docking to be promoted. With Corgis in New Zealand, the best docking method has always been the withering away of the tail within a pup's first week in using a rubber band.

[Michael Romanos]

If the USA Government places a total ban on the docking of dog's tails and ear cropping, then the rest of the world may follow. Afterall there are 52 million dogs in the USA which is the biggest number per capita of any country.

A partial ban in NZ may be a reprieve for Corgis here because they are classified as a working dog ie farm livestock assistant, and a partial ban would not include farming dogs and perhaps hunting dogs. If the definition of a farm dog means you have to have a Corgi residing at a farm and demonstratively utilised for farming purposes, a Corgi owner could get around this by occasionally alloting his/her Corgi to a farm and allowing the Corgi to "mess around" in herding etc.

[glencorgi]

Michael wrote:

>If the USA Government places a total ban on the docking of dog's tails and >ear cropping, then the rest of the world may follow. Afterall there are 52 >million dogs in the USA which is the biggest number per capita of any >country.

The animal rights activists in the US who push these kind of legislations have figured out they can't bring up a cropping or docking ban on a national level in the US yet. They leave that to the European countries which roll over to comply with the mandates of the European Council and other animal rights agenda organizations. Thus precedents get set, such as corgis being among the over 100 breeds labeled as dangerous in Italy. In the US we see more incremental attempts made. Cropping bans have been attempted at state levels, most recently in CA and VT. CA is basically gone as far as respecting pet owners' rights. But the animal rights activists and agenda is built on increments here - chipping away at owners' rights.

Should there be a total ban of docking in the US, there would be NO reprieve or exemptions made in the context of what Michael mentioned that could occur in NZ. The agenda of the HSUS, PeTA and other animal rights groups is the extinction of domestic animals and the end of all animal use - period.

Debbie

[Michael Romanos]

Good heavens. The end of domestic animals and animals use. Help. What crackpot argument for banning docking and cropping of dogs is that?
In NZ, we have had up to 40 million sheep within a human population of less than four million (at the time). These sheep get their tails cut off when they are lambs as part of the farming process. The SPCA (Special Care for the Protection of Animals) and the National Vets Association in New Zealand support a ban on the docking and cropping dogs but only on the grounds that docking and cropping are unnecessary and is a painful action. Both these organisations support the proliferation of domestic animals.

With Pems, docking of their tail may very well be unnecessary. I am very happy with the docking of their tails because it is astethically superior to have a Pem docked than the fairly miserly tail they can have, and it gives a Pem a sense of uniqueness. But there again, given time, I suppose a Pem's tail could be improved through breeding though it would be an upheavel for quite some time to produce Pems with more acceptable tails and not "spoil" other parts of their anatomy.

I don't see any sense in the cropping of dogs ears. I think it is a little ridiculous though hunters would say that a cropped ear present less chance of ear damage to a dog.

[KatC]

Michael says - ' asthethically superior to have a Pem docked than the fairly miserly tail they can have'. The ban on tail docking is fairly new here in Qld but as you can see Abby has a very thick fox like tail. so it has worked OK for her, but confuses most people as to what breed of dog she is.

[liz2001]

Oh, she is so cute! Where do you live? I live in the US and am trying to get a pembroke with its tail intact.

[KatC]

Thank you. Abby is pleased you like her tail. We live near Brisbane in Queensland, Australia. Abby came from a Breeder further up the coast from here, so I am afraid that is a bit geographically impossible for you. Perhaps someone from your area would know of a breeder over there who would be happy to help you. Regards K&A.

[Michael Romanos]

Having said that a Pembroke can have a fairly miserly tail, I did spot one Pem whose tail was intact and the tail was quite fulsome .though unlike a Cardi, it stood up quite a bit and waved airily.

Liz has this unstopable infatuation for Pems with tails. She should do as I suggested on the other thread, and go find a breeder who will agree not to dock the tail of one of the pups from a litter. But hell, Cardis are very pem-like and there is nothing better in tails than a Cardis.

[Cardiguy]

I agree with Michael- if you want a corgi with a tail why not consider a Corgi with a super tail-the Cardigan. Cardis are great dogs also.

[glencorgi]

The tail end of things:
Quoting Michael: "Having said that a Pembroke can have a fairly miserly tail, I did spot one Pem whose tail was intact and the tail was quite fulsome .though unlike a Cardi, it stood up quite a bit and waved airily."

A Pembroke tail should NOT be like a Cardigan tail and what Michael describes sounds to be what a "correct" PWC tail should look like and how it should be carried. In addition to a wide range of tail looks that I have seen via rescue (at a corgi picnic two years ago there were about 6 tailed Pems - including one 3/4 length natural bob), I have also had the opportunity to see well-bred Pembrokes from Scandanavia which were imported by some of my Pem club members. Their breeder has also judged our regional speciaty show. We've also had one of the recognized "authorities" on natural bobs judge. Additionally, one of our club members who is an AKC licensed judge has traveled to Scandanavia to judge. So tails are often a part of our seminars on structure and movement. Interestingly, when the Kennel Club wrote tails into the standard, the set and carriage they called for would require an incorrect rear assembly structure for a Pembroke. They really just didn't know how to deal with the tail. To see what a Pembroke tail should look and be carried like, then one needs to look to the Spitz breeds. Tail set is high and when a dog is up and on the move; carried over the back. In a relaxed state the tail can be held down. It does not flow off the body parallel to the ground into the fox-like brush of the Cardigan. That isn't correct for a PWC. Cardigan breeders struggle to get correct set, amount of croup and carriage in that breed and all those components go to correct rear structure, assembly and movement.

Liz without knowing she is doing so, is only illustrating how successful the brainwashing by the animal righters of the general public has been. If one were to be transported back to 1920 - 1930's Pembrokeshire, Wales, one would find natural bobbed Pembrokes common. One explanation as to why Pembrokes are docked is because they are a naturally bobbed breed. Interbreeding with the Cardigans (and a few other breeds) made the tail genes more prominent, however in order to hold true to Pembroke type, the tails were docked. Without type, one does not have a breed.

All Liz needs to do is go find the nearest horsey type breeding corgis as accessories to the barn and for the extra spending cash the litters bring in and she'll find a breeder who will cooperate with her. Shoot there are even horsey breeders breeding Cardigans who dock their tails because their "customers" like the Pem "look" better. As I said, no reputable or responsible breeder in the US will comply with her request. IF she does want to go for a quality and responsibly bred Pembroke with a tail, then importing from a country that no longer allows docking is the only choice she has there.

Debbie

[liz2001]

We are considering getting a cardigan now. But we just love my brother's pembroke so much. I am conflicted because I don't want to get a pem from a bad breeder just so I can have them keep the tail. I want a well raised, healthy puppy but I just see no reason to have its tail docked. I would be fine with taking a pem that was born with a bobbed tail.

[Cardiguy]

Get the Cardigan if you want a tail. While they may not be as popular they are every bit a corgi as the Pembroke and maybe even a drop more. They great dogs and should not be viewed as a poor substitute