An accidental very hard bite

[Jespah]

Our dog (St. Bernard) was maced through our fence when we were kids by our mailman. We lived in a city where they had alleys for garbage truck pick-ups, etc. Our dog loved to walk beside people on her side of the fence and then let out a huge "woof" to scare the heck out of them - there was no way should would or could have harmed them through the fence. Unfortunately, the mailman had a dark beard and our dog forever connected any man with a beard with the incident and we had to be very cautious around men with beards, as she would lunge at them. That was a 150 lb. dog - so one idiot put lots of other innocent people at risk for his stupid act. She never did attack or hurt anyone in her lifetime, but we were alway wary.

[Chip's Mom]

Susan:

I am with you - My Chip would lick somebody to death even if they stuck their whole arm through the door BUT if someone pepper sprayed my Chip in his own yard, his Mom would be a force to reckon with mail or no mail. Now that being said, Maybelle is another story and I don't trust her with strangers. Thankfully, our mailbox is 440 ft from our house and if packages need to be left, they leave them in the garage. I have had a bigger worry with people leaving the gate open but then that has only happened a few times years ago.

[Michael Romanos]

Accusing Bailey of deliberately biting the hand of the postie is as much bizarre as is someone saying that the postie had somehow trespassed or invaded a private house in placing part of her hand through the mail slot.

In New Zealand, a private mail box is usually installed on the boundary of the property but this rule can be altered with a commonsense approach or in consultation with the NZ Postal Services.

In my case following the vandalisation of my letter box which had been directly facing the pavement, I put up a new post and box down my driveway and had a post office rep on site to agree with the new siting which inconveniences the postal deliverer somewhat but makes my mail safer and the box less likely to be wrecked.

[Artos]

The Postie invaded the house by putting her hand into the slot -It might be bizarre to you in NZ to see it as trespass....but it is not in other parts of the world.
Please have respect for other people's opinions especially when they are not from your part of the world.

[Chip's Mom]

I didn't imply that Bailey was attacking the postal worker. But if a person owns a good watchdog, the dog could view a hand coming through a hole in a door or an open window as invasion and protect their property by biting. It just seems like common sense to me that a postal worker should slide the mail through the slit and not stick their hand through it too especially if they haven't delivered to that house before. A person never knows what is on the other side of a door to a house that they have never been inside of. I apologize if my post implied otherwise. Also, if her hand hadn't been inside of the slit, Bailey never would have bitten more than the envelopes that he was obviously seeking.

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

Now there is as much chance of Taylor attacking and intimidating any person as there is in Glencorgi or Linda marrying me.

Ahhhhh Michael, had only the stars crossed our paths in another time or place.

Back to the really serious matter at hand. A lot of good discussion, suggestions and advice has been given and Bailey's Driver is being very proactive in covering every contingency one can think of. When I first read the post, my heart sunk - another dog with a negative label due to human error. I don't understand the need for her to have stuck her fingers through the slot either, not so sure about trespass (that would need to be defined under local laws I suspect), but she did invade Bailey's territory. While Bailey was only doing his the "mail's here, the mail's here!" thing (much like our first Cardigan girl's reaction to playing ball - in her frenzy to fetch she would often connect with flesh and so this activity was limited only to family members - just in case); I don't find it very responsible or conscientious of the carrier to be sticking her fingers inside mail slots for the simple fact, she has NO idea what might be on the other side. An aggressive toy breed dog could have easily chewed up her finger(s), a cat might have taken a swipe at it/them with a claw or bitten her, ferret maybe even given her a nip. Not real safe behavior or actions on her part.

If any of the matters that Taylor was accused of went any further than they did (they virtually went no where at all) - I would have gathered in many references on his behalf from hundreds of people and a large number of organisations/entities.

Given Bailey's celebrity status from his bike rides, I think this would be a good idea to utilize for him as well in addition to the other things you are doing.

And while everyone is checking their homeowner's insurance, this is also a good time to remind everyone to keep an eye on local dog ordinances and legislation being propossed in your area. Under new legislation passed and just waiting for the mayor's signature in Louisville, KY; all it takes is an individual to feel uneasy around a dog and it can get labeled as dangerous and be seized by animal control.

We're pulling for you!

Debbie

[Michael Romanos]

I don't have a huge amount of family - but two of them were posties and three of them are lawyers. I must ask one of the former mail deliverers what he thinks about the etiquettes of mail delivery - how far is too far to put ones hand through a mal slot in a front door; and ask one of the lawyers when one of them returns from Christmas holidays, what can a shrewd legal mind think up in defence of a dog on an errand who was merely doing his duty in gathering a pile of hot-off-the-press mail and someone's hand to take to his dad or mum.
By the way, if I had a mail slot on my front door, I would have had a catch box on the inside. But where would the fun be then for a Corgi?
If I was the Post Office, I would be most upset if the defence lawyer argued that a postal employee had no right to put their hand as far as they wish through a mail slot in delivering mail. It was nice of a mail worker to want to put the mail down as gently as possible to the floor. Who knows what's in a letter - a crystal glass version of a Go Corgi calendar????

[corgimom]

What a law that is pending in Louisville, Ky. So you can end up with some nut or disgruntled neighhbor who can make a claim that your dog scares them or makes them feel uneasy and they can possibly seize ones dog based on that claim? I guess Michael is lucky that he does not live there, or that nutty neighbor lady of his would have had Taylor removed a long time ago.
Of course, on the other hand, Michael might have utilized this law in his favor in regards to the cats he has run into(if it covers cats?)

I see a lot of future lawsuits clogging up the court system in Louisville

[corgimom]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

Now there is as much chance of Taylor attacking and intimidating any person as there is in Glencorgi or Linda marrying me.

I didn't know you were available Is your wife aware of this

Deb,

What a law that is pending in Louisville, Ky. So you can end up with some nut or disgruntled neighhbor who can make a claim that your dog scares them or makes them feel uneasy and they can possibly seize ones dog based on that claim? I guess Michael is lucky that he does not live there, or that nutty neighbor lady of his would have had Taylor removed a long time ago.
Of course, on the other hand, Michael might have utilized this law in his favor in regards to the cats he has run into(if it covers cats?)

I see a lot of future lawsuits clogging up the court system in Louisville

Bailey's driver,

I hope this doesn't turn into something bad for Bailey. I really can't understand why the postal worker put her hand so far into the slot, and you said it was only one letter. I would never attempt to stick my hand into a mail slot like that, just for the reasons that Deb gave.

[corgimom]

http://www.animallaw.info/articles/q...slstatutes.htm

Here is an article I found that was published this May and it goes over some states and their laws regarding dog bites - not all states are on here, but you can click on your own state and read more(not sure how up to date that information is)

[Michael Romanos]

Had a good quick chat to my nephew, Brendan who was a postal mail deliverer full time for about three years.
Brendan says that the most convenient, efficient, effective and speedy way to put mail in a lidded door slot for a busy postie is to feed the mail through with your hand also going through the slot. Some quite deliberate force is required with some lidded door slots and some have springs on them which also require a greater physical effort by the postie. And if we are talking about a female postie, then she will need to be even more assertive in inserting mail into the slot than would a male. So as a matter of course, a postie puts there hand through the slot in the door in delivering mail - one letter or a bunch and even if the slot is not lidded. By the way, Brendan has had his hand jammed in a springed lid of a mail slot in a front door. The Post Office had to tell the home owner to make the slot safer for their mail people.

[Bailey's driver]

Originally Posted by corgimom

http://www.animallaw.info/articles/q...slstatutes.htm

Here is an article I found that was published this May and it goes over some states and their laws regarding dog bites - not all states are on here, but you can click on your own state and read more(not sure how up to date that information is)

Thanks for that great link! Very informative.

There is a huge amount of information about the laws in my state pertaining to dogs. There are many many laws about dogs, it's surprising. It would appear that I am only liable for any damages at all if the dog is outside of an enclosed area and off my property.
It also seems that the documents showing Baileys vaccinations is all that is needed for rabies control.

But it's complicated and of course a lawyer is really needed to interpret it all.
There are at least a couple of pages pertaining to dog law.
No guesses or ideas about what should happen mean much unless the law says so.

I would strongly suggest that everyone read all the laws in their own state/location etc. about dogs, you may get some big surprises.

I just learned that it's legal to kill a dog if he starts to attack you. And there are big owner penalties for dogs attacking deer, and live stock.

I have not heard from my lawyer friend yet, he is always busy and involved in lots of committees etc. He will not forget me, he will call or email.
I also told him for now that it is not urgent, I know if I call and say it is very urgent he will get right back to me. After I talk to him I will post what I learned.

Apparently my regular carrier was taking more care than normal because of the dog, and the woman who was bit was doing something very typical. I would have guessed the opposite. Pass my thanks along to your nephew too please, Michael.

Thanks to everyone for all the great comments. I appreciate the supportive attitude. I learned a lot from this thread. A lot of good information and good ideas.

[Bailey's driver]

Sorry about the double post. My lawyer friend just called and what he said is still fresh in mind.

I forgot he was a letter carrier for a while too !! DUH ! He worked for my other friend the postal supervisor.
There is apparently a lot of dog specific training that he went through. Including videos about agresive dogs with real trained attack dogs etc.
There is an animated training video about NOT putting your hand in the mail slot. The video shows a dog salivating, inside the door waiting for something to come through the mail slot. They are very carefully trained NOT to put their hands inside the mail slots just for this reason. And it is repeated. He said he got his hand caught in a mail slot once anyway.

If there is a potential problem noticed at at house the carrier will normally mark the mail slot with a note and tell the supervisor, so the information can be passed on to others and kept on record.

Typically the first dog bite is not a legal problem, as the owner can claim that the dog had been friendly and he had no knowledge of a threat to others. The second bite is different, now the owner knows about the threat and should have done something to prevent it.

He says legally the Post Office would not be sueing me. They will try and hand me the bill anyway, why not?

My decision on my own will be to pay reasonable medical bills for this womans injury anyway. I think it's the right thing to do. She might sue me, but he has seen a lot of situations like this that he thought would lead to a law suit, but did not. He told me a lot of first hand experiences about dogs behind the door waiting for the mail, dogs getting the mail and chewing it up, the mail being pulled in by surprise by a quiet dog etc. It's very common and they talk to each other about it. He said call him first if there is any other paperwork to do.

This guy is a well known lawyer in my state. He takes a dog as a foster parent on the weekends that is being trained to be a special needs help dog by the state. He likes dogs. He's borrowing one of Bailey's crates. I think he has owned a dog all his life. I can't imagine a better information source or someone better to go to bat for me than a former letter carrier lawyer, that loves dogs !

[milosmom]

I have a mail slot in my door too and Milo's mission in life is to get that mail as it is coming through the slot and push it back out the door! Sometimes I've witnessed a tug of war...the mailman trying to push it in while Milo has the other end trying to push it back out!!
Clearly he sees mail as an invasion and is trying to protect his home and get the offending paper out! Dogs are territorial by nature, a dog can't be blamed for trying to protect his home!!

I had to put a child gate up in the foyer so the mail can be delivered through the slot and prevent the mail from being eaten and never thought of the scenario of a mailperson getting a finger or two chewed if he/she was dumb enough to stick his/her hand in the house!

It just doesn't seem fair to label the dog as a bad egg because of this. I hope common sense will prevail and the authorities will realize this was an isolated incident.
If anyone knows how to train a dog to stop eating mail and/or pushing it back through the mail slot, let me know. I've tried a lot of tactics and finally gave up and use the child gate!!

I think you are doing the right thing by offering to pay for the medical expenses....that and a sincere apology is often all that is needed to prevent a lawsuit, if the other person is also reasonable and understanding. I wish you the best of luck and hope it doesn't get ugly. Bailey is just too cute...one look at that Corgi face and you just know he didn't mean it.

[ZdogZ]

I hope it all turns out well for Bailey. We will keep our fingers and paws crossed for you both. Thank goodness our mail goes to a post office box. Zip would be the one who would bite someone, thinking he was protecting us. Zia would just lick them to death.