the business of breeding

[Peggy]

Thanks to everyone for the compliments. Lacy is one of the "special" ones for me. She's my second heart dog. She's the only surviving member of her litter, something wrong w/moms milk and she was the only one we could save. I ended up bottle rasing her.

The picture under my screen name are her puppies. They were about 4 mos. old when that was taken.

Peggy

[Michael Romanos]

The leading breeders of dogs in NZ whose kennels produce two-five litters annually, would profit from breeding. The small time breeders would not as a rule.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

The leading breeders of dogs in NZ whose kennels produce two-five litters annually, would profit from breeding. The small time breeders would not as a rule.

Really? Here they wouldn't. 2-5 litters would not bring a profit.

When there were the big show kennels, well one I knew of that had corgis, bred at least 20 litters a year.

There are several "top breeders" in the US that have 2-5 litters a year and they are not making a profit.

Does NZ not do the health tests? What is the average price for a stud fee? Average price for a pet puppy? Average litter size?

Peggy

[glencorgi]

Jane,

The breeders, or maybe Breeders to be more accurate you are describing are what is known as Hobby Breeders. They do it for the love of the breed, their dogs and the opportunity to do things with them. While to a certain degree there is a business aspect to it, it is a hobby first and foremost. As with most hobbies, (building models, quilting, knitting, woodworking -pick one) there are expenses and time and even IF one does sell some of their craft, it is extremely difficult to get compensation for every little thing.

Okay, let's start from scratch and for the purpose of this thread we'll say you are starting out "right" from the beginning. You're not starting with a sow's ear trying to turn it into a silk purse. So you purchase your show potential puppy, for a novice most likely a dog as promising b*tches are not usually let go to novices. So you pay your $1,200 - $1,500 for your show prospect puppy. At 6 months you begin entering him in shows. Now keep in mind you've had the day to day expenses of upkeep - food, vitamins, shots, etc., training classes up to this point. Puppy entry fees, IF there is a price break for puppies, can run $18 to $20 per show. Add in the travel expenses now of gas and food. Show supplies - clothes for you, collar leash, grooming products and supplies and bait. IF shows are not local, within easy driving range in a day, then you are also going to have hotel expenses. Once out the puppy classes, then adult entry fees average between $22 to $28. Now IF you are lucky and I mean VERY lucky he might gain the necessary points to finish his championship or in the case of KC type shows earn enough Challenge Certificates for his championship. In AKC you need fifteen points which includes 2 majors (wins valued at 3 points, 4 or 5 points). Now in my area you need to defeat 12 dogs or so in order to get a 3 point win. Maybe showing isn't your thing - you enjoy going but don't like going in the ring so you hire a handler, more $. Finally you get your championship and now you have proved yourself and offered a co-ownership on a lovely b*tch prospect, another $1,200 -$1,500.

You start all over showing her, except now you already have your grooming products and show clothes (and you will continously be buying new products, new leashes to try, new collars, the latest brush, etc.). Now b*tch majors, the numbers go up considerably, 20-21 needed for a 3 point major around here. So you're waiting anxiously to get her into the ring and her bite goes off. Have to start over. OR you start showing her and she HATES, I mean really HATES to show. Now what? Or we'll say things go okay and you start showing her - same expenses again. And try as you might and as nice as she is, she never gets a point. It happens. Or we'll say she does finish, but it takes her 3 years instead of 2 (and I am really bending the reality of how hard it is to finish a Pembroke.) Now it is time to get ready for your first breeding.

Now in the time you were showing her, you should have been doing research and consulting with her breeder as to stud dogs. Stud fee is going to be the average price of a puppy -$1,200 - $1,500. At age 2 you will have had her x-rayed for hip dysplasia and the films sent to OFA or Penn-Hip for evaluation and IF she comes back dysplastic, where are you then? Eyes will have been checked 2 or 3 times by an AVCO opthamologist. Her breeder may insist on thyroid panel being done, heart and elbows and vWD testing. The stud dog owner may insist on brucellosis testing.

You are in the east and the stud dog you've selected is in the midwest or CA. In the old days (and still an option today), you would have had to ship her to the stud dog owner's home about the time she was due in season. The flight out may have thrown her system off and she doesn't come in. Stud dog owner may keep her until she comes back in and might charge boarding/maintenance fees for keeping her. Or she comes on in and is bred. Transport arrangements come out of your pocket - flying or IF you were lucky someone may have been able to give her a ride. Still need to compensate them for looking after her. Once she gets to the stud dog owner, then progesterone testing might be required to determine when to do the breeding.

Growing in more use today is shipping fresh chilled semen and artificial insemination. This factors into more vet visits and expenses that way. This does require progesterone testing, being ready to dash out at any hour to the local airport and pick up "the package" and get straight to the vet's. Things go wrong and the little fellows arrive non-viable. You go through this 2 or 3 times during the window she's breedable. But will say all goes well and the breeding is done.

Stay tune for part 2

[glencorgi]

Breeding took place and you did everything correct and the breeding didn't take or puppies were absorbed. Most stud dog owners will offer a repeat breeding under such circumstances, but you repeat the expenses with the vet visits. Breeding takes, and now for the next 63 days you begin preparing. Food will have to be increased, you'll need a whelping box and whelping kit. Maybe you'll sign up for a pregnancy monitoring service or maybe you'll hire a midwife. Towards the end she gets very picky and you go through sardines and ice cream feedings. A few days before she's due, she goes off and you rush to the vet who decides to keep her under oxygen until she's ready to deliver (happened to Berry's dam). Because of this equivalence of bed rest in humans, the safest for both your girl and the puppies is to schedule a c-section. Or things go smoothly and she begins whelping; puppy # 3 gets stuck and you're off to the vet's for an emergency c-section. Milk doesn't drop immediately, so you're bottle feeding - have to buy the supplies for that and have them on hand. Ideally she free whelps 6 healthy puppies. Everyone is doing well when you finally close your eyes at 4:00 in the morning. When you awake at 6:00 AM to check on them one puppy has died. Later that afternoon you lose another one and you're off to the vet to see what is going on. Peggy mentioned Lacy's litter where there was only one survivor due to the dam's toxic milk, Lacy. But we'll say all 6 puppies make it. You'll be able to sleep after the first week passes, maybe. As a part of the stud fee, the stud dog owner wants a puppy back. Your girl's breeder, as a part of her contract wants a puppy back. You're now down to 4 puppies from which to pick your keeper. One of the puppies is a fluffy, one is a mismark, you are now down to two puppies from which to pick your keeper. Out of the original six puppies, you now have 3 to sell. Or the worse case scenario, you lose both your girl and all the puppies.

Now you are going to keep these puppies until they are 10 to 12 weeks old. You have tails to dock and dew claws to remove. Food, vitamins and supplements to add. De-wormings, shots, puppy collars, leashes, littter registration. Paper towels, cleaning supplies, more paper towels. Puppy pen when they outgrow the whelping box and more paper towels. Bedding and newspapers or newsprint.

All this adds up in terms of dollars and cents (and heaven knows I'm forgetting something). Now try to factor in paying yourself even minimum wage and see if you come out ahead.

Now don't get me wrong, I find nothing wrong with a Breeder breaking even or coming out ahead on a litter. An established Breeder may have stud dogs of her own he/she uses, but will still go outside sometimes. Sometimes the stud dog fees may be there, sometimes not. A Breeder who has maybe five litters a year - one may go smoothly, one may require a section, one he/she may use an outside stud, one may not take, one may loose everything, one may loose the dam and have to hand rear the puppies. There may be pure profit on one litter and go in the hole on the other four. Over time, long term breeders (all breeds) will tell you to expect to lose 1/4 of your puppies.

Cost of expenses will vary in different parts of the country, but they will still be there. Try the math and see what you come up with.

Debbie

[Jane Austen]

Thanks everyone for answering this question. But that brings up another question of how a hobby breeder is able to make a living? They may board dogs or have a part time job. I don't suppose there can be much time away from the animals? And there may be a financially secure spouse in the picture. Well, everyones situation could be different.
I am one of those people who wonder how some people can afford those big mansions being built lately. But I am happy with my regular sized home.
(Not forgetting to thank Debbie for her extensive outline of breeding expenses.)
This not only answers my question but comes at a good time to remind others on this website about the perils of breeding.

[Dillydoodle]

Jane, many hobby breeders have full time jobs often not related to dogs at all..I know in the case of a few of the hobby breeders i know, they work monday through Friday at jobs to make the money to afford their hobby. Then on weekends they are off traveling to shows and such. And another breeder that i know about, the husband works outside the home, and she breeds, shows, and travels with the dogs, she handles at shows as well...

Debbie, Thanks for that post, I really think it gives a very good look into what a breeder actually does...the trials and tribulations. For me , the number one reason I would never consider breeding would be the fact that my heart could not bear to lose anyone...and for me , the possibly of losing one of the females that i love, and worked so hard with for several years is a bigger risk than this sensitive heart could bear.

Emilie

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by Jane Austen

Thanks everyone for answering this question. But that brings up another question of how a hobby breeder is able to make a living?

They work, have a regular 9 to 5 just like anyone else - along with families and children. The dogs are a hobby something they do on the side that takes daily attention. Vacations are scheduled around specialities for many of them. Time off is taken when puppies are due. Things like that.

Debbie

[corgimom]

Originally Posted by Chip's Mom

The sad part is not everyone can afford to spend that much money on a pup no matter the breed so therefore people go to the less expensive puppies.

This is true Bonnie, and I think I told this story before. But my mother in law got Two female Boston terriers from what would be classified as a "back Yard Breeder". One was for her and one for her daughter - when the dogs were 1 1/2 years old, they both developed cataracts in one of their eyes and each dog had to have an eye removed at a cost of about $1500 each.(This was 10years ago) and quite a few follow up appointments with a specialist. She spent a lot of money.
They are both 11 1/2 now and I know my sister in law still has to put drops in her dogs good eye (for some reason, which I can't remember what it is)

Now, had my mother in law gone to a reputable breeder(who would have done the necessary testing on the parents) in the first place, there would have been a much better chance this would not have happened. So really that cheaper dog ended up costing her way more in the end. However, I will say, that she also had another Boston Terrier, not from the same breeder, that lived to be 16 1/2 and never had any medical problems - so I guess it is a chance you take, and there are no guarantees. She did contact the breeder to tell her of the eye problem, but I don't think she(the breeder) really had much to say about it.

[glencorgi]

Let me preface what I am going to say that this is in no way intended to be a dig at anyone's dog and that I know how difficult to separate heart and emotions out of the equation with talking about our beloved four footed critters. Bonnie says: "The sad part is not everyone can afford to spend that much money on a pup no matter the breed so therefore people go to the less expensive puppies."

Linda gave an example of her mother-in-law. Put aside the fact that Chipster is pawsitively perfect , and just look at the dollars and cents you have invested in him. Would that have not covered the amount of one of those "more expensive" puppies?

Pet shop puppy prices are more often than not more expensive than buying from a reputable, responsible hobby breeder.

Now the reality from another perspective is that Hobby Breeders cannot and never will be able to fill the demand for puppies for their breed. Nor would they really want to be able to. Many of us here, certain breeders wouldn't sell to us anyway. So where are the corgis of the 1,000 members here going to come from? The backyard breeders, commercial breeders and those breeding for the financial perks they can get out of a litter of puppies.

Debbie

[Chip's Mom]

Debbie - you have not offended me. I will go one step further and say there are alot of people who would not have put $1,000 in there dog's mouth either and then turned around and brought home a second one. Generally speaking though, I don't believe alot of people would spend or felt they could afford to spend that amount of money on a dog. It just isn't in their budgets or their way of thinking but they would make great pet owners. I have a relative who loves my Chip and would like a corgi but is not willing to pay half that amount for one and he can well afford it. Everyone knows that Chip was a gift from my sister to me and she had me pick him out. I would never in a million years asked her or expected her to pay $1,000 for one. So I just meant that some of the less expensive puppies are filling a need.

That is also what is great about these kinds of posts because they are so informative and educational to people who just don't know. Education is part of the answer to improving the backyard breeders quality of puppies and that is exactly the role that you are doing is educating the people with your informative answers to these threads. (applause)

I hope I clarified my statement.

[glencorgi]

Okay, for those wanting some pricing to go along with some of the things I mentioned (and Pam should pay particular attention to this because it is up in her neck of the US). This is from a hobby breeder planning to do a fresh-chilled semen litter and what she is looking at paying for progesterone testing.

"Have to admit that I sat up and blinked a few times when I phoned my clinic & was given a quote of $89 per test (though that's the total, no extras tacked on). I breathed deeply,*then called the other clinic, where they told me they'd charge me*$75 per test... but then there's a $26 office call, too, so that means a total of $101. Gads. Especially when I figure it's probably 5 tests or so, plus the fresh chilled expenses, FedEx, vets on both ends, stud fee... ouch!"

More food or $ for thought.

Debbie

[Bayoucorgi]

Jane,
Duchess' breeder did what every breeder should do. She stood by the life she produced. She was there to protect Duchess and find her a lifetime home.

I am sometimes accused of being anti-breeding. I was a breeder for 25 years. I bred 5 litters of puppies. My Ch. UD, multi-titled stud dog sired 3 litters. I am very much against people who want to breed so their kids can see puppies, so their dog can be a daddy, so they'll make some money, and the million other reasons people breed.

I sold my puppies for $1000 each and my last litter was six years ago. They were all sired by Champions with all the clearances. All my dogs always had all their clearances. In the long run, I never "made" any money. Yes, in the month or two after the puppies went to their new homes, it looked good on paper, but if you looked at the red ink from hip x-rays, opthal exams, heart checks, blood work, shipping, emergency c-sections on two differerent girls the vets did better than me. And that doesn't count the stud fees, handlers, show entries, shipping, equipment, classes, or travel of showing because that was my hobby. And then the advertising, phone bills, postage, and a million other things that cost money.

I probably could have bred more puppies, but I felt strongly that I needed to be able to keep track of what I produced and to be there if someone needed me. I never had to take one back because I screened my potential buyers very carefully, had strong contracts, and gave a LOT of counseling and puppy Dr. Spock time. And I was very lucky. I sold my pets on spay/neuter and later on Limited Registration so I hope I none of them were part of the pet overpopulation problem. (But you can never be sure!)

No, if you do it right, with passion and commitment, breeding is rewarding in intrinsic ways but not financial. It is wrought with worry and heartache and there are a lot easier ways to make money.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Jane Austen

But that brings up another question of how a hobby breeder is able to make a living? They may board dogs or have a part time job. I don't suppose there can be much time away from the animals?

Well, here my husband works a full time job and I've stayed home. He's been known to work overtime to for money for me to go to shows. Also, I've worked part time at times, and more commonly, I do cross stitch pictures and sell them for a little extra money.

I have a friend in shelties, her husband works full time to support them and she runs a small boarding kennel and does some grooming to pay her "dog" expenses.

Some families both partners work full time.

Yes, some times they are away from the animals all day. I've been lucky that I haven't had to be. I've raised my sons and dogs as a stay at home mom for the most part. My sons have helped with the dogs over the years, which I've been very grateful for and well, since my oldest got married in Sept. I've been missing my "kennel help" greatly. He was the one that helped with the dogs most. His job allowed him to have some week days off (worked weekends usually too) so I could get him to help with doing nails and other grooming with me. And now, I either have to squeeze that in on weekends if I want Jim's help or do it on my own.

Peggy

[Michael Romanos]

Peggy - those questions of yours maybe too hard to answer. But let me say that owning and raising a dog in NZ is not as expensive as it is in many countries. Conversely though, dogs do not sell for as much as they do in most countries. At the cheapest end of purchasing a pedigree dog are Corgis, so we generally have a range of between $500 and $1500. But for the breeders here who sell puppies to overseas buyers, the price of a pup can rise considerably since most of our breeders would have knowledge of the going price in the country they are exporting to. Regular breeders in NZ that I may have spoken to and broached this kind of subject, have told me that they come up on the right side of the ledger. There are few dog breeders in NZ who breed many more that five litters annually. We have one nutter here who owns something like 300 Wheatens with most farmed out and under joint ownership. But he is one of a kind in NZ. Of course, female dogs in NZ would produce litters of the same size as anywhere else in the world unless you know something that I don't eg differing conditions make litters larger or smaller. Certainly, the conditions for healthy whelping and healthy puppy producing in NZ is excellent in comparison to most other countries.