Question for Breeder

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Chip's Mom

You are absolutely correct Peggy - but Lady is a corgi mix and the dog that these people bred her with was also a corgi mix so there was a lot of corgi blood in there. We kept the puppies until they were eight weeks old. All had the sable and white markings.

So in that case they should look like corgi puppies. Also, 8 weeks is usually too young to say if a puppy is a sable or not. Reds and sable look very much alike at that age. Even I cannot tell which puppies are sables or reds for sure at 8 weeks old.

Peggy

[Chip's Mom]

This is true Peggy - however, that was their color when they went to their new homes. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Chip's Mom

This is true Peggy - however, that was their color when they went to their new homes. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear.

The reason I brought it up is that many new breeders say they have x number of sables and x number or reds at birth. Since we have people who might think about breeding, I wanted to let people know that even long time breeders don't know for sure until the 10-12 week age.

IMO, many reds are registered as sables and some sables registered as reds because the owner or breeder didn't know that puppy coats change.

Most red puppies have some dark tipping or sable looking coats until about 3 mos of age. That's when it starts to change a bit.

Peggy

[Chip's Mom]

Chip and Dale are both registered as sable and white. I didn't know the difference until Debbie (Glencorgi) told me and their mom is definitely a red and white and so are Chip and Dale. The vet's office had Chip down as brown and tan (imagine that) anyway both are or will be neutered so it doesn't matter to me how they are registered but it is very important to know the differences if you are breeding puppies. Debbie is going to do a little tutorial on colors at the TN corgi picnic and I am looking forward to that. I don't think I have ever seen a true sable and white corgi.

[tandemgal]

thanks for clearing up the C-section question. For some reason I thought that if the Mother needed a C-section the Vet had to do a hysterectomy. Didn't know that it wasn't always necessary!

[Bayoucorgi]

Most of you already know my story. I have had corgis (well, a corgi) for 8 months. My horse-trainer had a bunch of them and I always liked their courage, spunk, attitude. So I guess I was around them for 15 years.

I got my Liam from the corgi rescue. He is too small and has the wrong coat to be a show dog. He has the crookedest front legs I've ever seen and his topline dips and his butt is too high. From my years "in" dogs I know that this is a terrible specimen. I ADORE this dog.

I trained, trialed, showed, raised, rescued, bred and buried Champion, UD, multi-titled dogs as well as a movie dog and a Guiding Eyes dog. I was "in" Goldens for about 5 years before breeding a litter. I leased an Am.Can. Ch. Am.Can CDX, WCX bitch who was a daughter of the last living Ch. AFC Golden and bred her to my Ch. UD, JH, WCX, VCX, Can UD dog. Both had OFA hip, CERF eye, VWD blood clearances. This was before Subvalvular Stenosis became a problem and we had to clear hearts too. She had an emergency C-section and we lost 2 puppies but one went on to be a UD, one became our foundation bitch, the magnificent male I kept went undershot and had to be neutered. He was hit by a car after escaping from a field trainer's run and came home a cripple. I rehab-ed him and he was a pet.

I have 30 years "in" dogs. I showed in conformation, obedience and field. I judged, I rescued (you will learn more about your breed and its issues in a year in rescue than you will learn in a lifetime of breeding). I would be arrogant to think it transferred over. I does not. I have no business breeding corgis that act or look like Golden Retrievers.

A person can learn "conformation" with some 4-H classes on judging livestock and watching videos and attending judging clinics. A person can learn to train an obedience dog or a field dog (in our case herding dog) by going to classes and trialing at the elbow of someone who knows what they are doing.

The most important thing is you will NEVER learn enough to breed good dogs by reading books. It takes years to learn the little DETAILS, for instance the difference of an "automatic" dog and an "autonomic" dog. And why it is important to the breed. An automatic dog is one that has been trained to a high level and knows its stuff so well it can do just about anything. An autonomic dog is one that does it because it loves it, because it was bred into them. Which one would you like to trial? Why? Which one is more correct to the breed? How much does your dog have and who should you breed to to get more or less?

And yes, even tho people may breed without ever showing their corgi a sheep, it shouldn't be that way. If we forget WHY corgis developed we forget the HEART and SOUL of the corgi. They don't have be Herding Champions, but they should have that stock dog spark. They have to have the courage, the instinct, the desire, and the drive. Or we will lose the essence of the breed.

As others have told you, you need to get a mentor. Someone who knows CORGIS. Someone you trust. Someone who breeds the kind of dogs you want to someday breed. Someone who will be honest. Brutally honest. I guess we're trying to be your breeder/mentors on-line. And yes, it offended the "blank" out of me when people told me my first Golden had light-eyes, was too red, had pointy feet, and was probably oversize. But THANK GOD I never bred her. She was also dysplastic. She was sweet and loving and devoted and a wonderful teacher to my subsequent dogs but she should not have been bred.

I truly doubt Emmye's breeder is the kind of breeder you want to pattern yourself after. Here's why. If Emmye was MY puppy and was placing her with you and I believed she was a breeding quality female from my evaluation of her pedigree, her temperament test, and her puppy conformation eval. I would have interviewed you intensively about why you want this dog, who will live with this dog, and what you plan for this dog. I would have explained why I believed she was quality AND why I was placing her (not the "didn't get along with her excuse").

FOR INSTANCE, I would have told you something like she is very correct front and rear, moves well with good reach and drive, and has a strong topline BUT I don't think she'll fit in MY program because she is too shy around new surroundings and I don't think she will have the ring sparkle and stock courage I want. I would tell you that she might do better in a single dog home and IF you socialize her extensively and SHOW me your commitment to the breed by getting her clearances and possibly getting her CD and a stock instinct test, I would consider removing the LIMITED registration on her AKC papers and I would like to evaluate her and work with you to find a suitable stud dog that would be complimentary to her and her pedigree. IT WOULD BE HIGHLY UNLIKELY that I would choose a dog of my own to breed her to.

So, Emmye's breeder IS NOT the breeder you want to become.

Go to some shows, talk to a lot of breeders. Don't just fall in with someone who tells you what you want to hear. Ask them questions like "what do you like about your dog?" and "what don't you like about your dog?" if they don't have room for improvement, then they don't know what they are doing.

A GOOD breeder will sound like Debbie, Peggy, or me. You want to be like them.

It isn't the matter of time before you breed your first litter. If I started with a bitch from a top line and I knew her strengths and weaknesses from my decades in dogs, and I showed and trained her, and researched pedigrees to know what was good and bad out there, and she got all her clearances, I MIGHT be ready to breed a litter in two years. If I started with a backyard bred dog and was new to the breed and I asked a LOT of questions and read a lot of books, I might be ready in 10 years.

You're thoughtful - I appreciate that. I hope you will be a good breeder someday. Maybe not with Emmye. Maybe with her. But you need to get clearances, and do research on her pedigree, and LEARN a lot more about her and her breed.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Chip's Mom

I don't think I have ever seen a true sable and white corgi.

There are two in the picture under my "name".

Peggy

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by tandemgal

thanks for clearing up the C-section question. For some reason I thought that if the Mother needed a C-section the Vet had to do a hysterectomy. Didn't know that it wasn't always necessary!

Nope, I have had females that have had litters after a c section. Tango had three. The second litter was mostly free whelped, till the last puppy decided to not make an appearance.

The first and last litters were due to huge puppies. 16 and 18 oz puppies in those litters. The first a litter of two and the second a litter of one.

Didn't breed her again after the third litter.
Peggy

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by Chip's Mom

I don't think I have ever seen a true sable and white corgi.

You have Bonnie, just didn't know it at the time. I believe Tanya had her boys at the Picnic. You'll find them on this page:
http://users.chartertn.net/wnoel/tn04picnic.html

Debbie

[Chip's Mom]

Thanks Deb - now I see the difference.

[Bayoucorgi]

Oops, I just counted my years again. I stated I was "in" Goldens 5 years before breeding a litter. My Ch. stud dog was 5. But I had been in Goldens for over 3 years before that with my backyard bred dog so I had been "in" dogs for 8 years before breeding.