Question for Breeder

[Emmye]

Hi

I have a question for breeder

I would like you to tell your story about how you got in to breeding if it starts with another breed start there and then tell how you got in to corgi

when did you see your first PWC,
when did you get your first one,
how did you learn about them,
What did you do to get started,
how long after that did you start to breed,
did people try to tell you not to do it.. how did you feel
why did you want to breed PWC
tell about your first litter of puppies
any problems along the way

Donna B

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by Emmye

Hi

I have a question for breeder

I would like you to tell your story about how you got in to breeding if it starts with another breed start there and then tell how you got in to corgi

I'm going to do a little semantic hair splitting here. "In corgis" means something slightly different to me (and a few others here most likely) than it will to the vast majority of the GoCorgi members. It is the same as being "in dogs" or a "in the fancy." Those who fit what I think of as "in corgis" are a true minority here. "In corgis (or "in dogs) is getting up at zero dark thirty, getting all the dogs fed and pottied to make one's 8:00 AM ring/run time weekend after weekend, spending exboritant amounts of money on entry fees, gas, hotel rooms - all for a 25 cent bit of ribbon IF one is lucky. There are other examples of individuals who are "in corgis" who never step foot in any type of ring (except perhaps the "Miss Paws in the Park" contests) who possess equal dedication, commitment and make substantial contributions to the breed(s) and will never breed a litter. There's a hole one steps into or a line one crosses over the edge when one is "in" a breed or "in dogs."

when did you see your first PWC,

At a dog show, after I had already become interested in the breed(s) and done some substantive research. Through making calls via a local kennel club's breeder referral service, we later visited with a Breeder and her dogs. That visit made the difference between me having a corgi and being "in corgis."

when did you get your first one,

The PWC Breeder we visited had a litter planned and I met the dam to be. I waited through two missed breedings with her, after the second missed breeding it was discovered she had reproductive problems and could not carry a litter. So for you folks who think waiting a couple of months is a long time ... it was over a year after my decision had been made that this was the breed I wanted and this was the Breeder from whom I wished to get my puppy, and it didn't happen. That's not including the reading, research and talking done before I got to that point.

how did you learn about them,

First become aware of the breed? A very tiny statue of a Pembroke in a shop called Everything Scottish located in Grandfather Mountain, NC. I was intrigued by the fox like look.

Learn, as in educating myself about the breed? Still going on. Preliminary - the AKC dog book from the local library, wrote the PWCCA, breed specific books from the local pet shops (not a lot of substance in many of them). Now, being shoved in the deep end of the pool came via acquiring our Cardigan. I mentioned visiting the Pembroke breeder and that visit changed me from "having a corgi" to being "in corgis," well this is how that happened. The Breeder mentioned an activity called Junior Handling which intrigued my eldest nephew. My sister and her two boys were living with us at the time and the whole family made the visit - they would all be living with any corgi that came to my house. The corgi search expanded to find a Cardigan (his preference - blue merle, one blue eye, one brown eye) for him to show in Juniors. Enter a Breeder, now retired, from up near Washington, DC who had a retired Ch they were looking to place. She was perfect. With her came one of the most invaluable commodities a beginner can have - MENTORS. Egomaniacal, control freaks who might have driven me nuts at the time, but I learned and thank my lucky stars for them today - they were right. Online - ShowPem, ShowCardi, Corgi-L, Showdogs-L, these were later added resources. I also attend breed seminars, am a member of the CWCCA and the regional Pembroke club. Lots of time spent talking dogs with breed friends and others in other breeds.

What did you do to get started,

Attended handling classes, even before we had our corgis. Joined the local kennel club, surrounded ourselves with knowledgeable and experienced dog people. paid dues, asked questions, listened, paid dues, attended corgi functions overed by a local, but not defunct club; paid more dues; submerged ourselves in the dog world and paid more dues. Read the standard, re-read the standard and read the standard again - I have periods where I'll pull it out and read it almost daily for a month.[/color]

how long after that did you start to breed,

From my initial interest in getting a Pembroke, to the time the puppies hit the ground, maybe four years or so.

[/QUOTE=]did people try to tell you not to do it..[/quote]

ABSOLULTELY!!! In retrospect, knowing what I know today, I'd never bred that particular litter and they were spot on correct in all advice they gave. Two years ago, I had the opportunity to tell one of them exactly that - and thanked them for being so honest.

how did you feel

To a degree, same as you probably are - HARRUMPPHH!!! Who the do you think you are to tell me anything? Although, some of the ones who were so brutally honest, their reputations and contributions to the breed speak for themselves. Made me think and today I freely admit they were unequivocably correct.

why did you want to breed PWC

Same reason as for breeding Cardigans, I do it for myself - striving for the brass ring.

tell about your first litter of puppies
any problems along the way

PWC's - had a litter of nine. Number 7 was too large for her to deliver naturally, so a speedy trip to the vet's office was in order. Mind you, my sister who was helping had assisted with a couple of whelpings prior to delivery. We also had an experienced Breeder there assisting, Breeder friends from kennel club were just a phone call away. With manipulation, we got the puppy out. On the way home she delivered another one in the backseat of the car, and another one once home. I lost four, even with a Cardigan breeder vet on speed dial, so had five girls left. First Cardigan litter, dam freewhelped 8 puppies, no problems. That streak ran out though.

Long road, stops and starts, taking detours, starting over more than once, discovering original visions were good ones ... never did it just to have puppies for sale or because the breed is so cool "everybody needs one." I made a lot of mistakes along the way, even with good resources at my disposal. Most of us who may come across a little strong, well, usually because we've been there, made the mistakes and got the t-shirts.


Debbie

[ColColt]

I just got back from a tour at PetSmart and was gone about two hours. I came home and of course, had to come here since I had been away a long time. I have to say this, Debbie. You, Peggy and the rest of the ladies here have opened my horizons to Corgi ownership(hope that's an acceptable word) and I have gleaned much from the different discussions on the various forums since being here. My hats off to you and all the rest for your interest, perpetual care for and undying love for this breed. May your endeavors be blessed and rewarded now and in the future to the utmost.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Emmye

I would like you to tell your story about how you got in to breeding if it starts with another breed start there and then tell how you got in to corgi

First I agree with Debbie about being "in corgis". I agree with her explaniation of that.

Our first dog was a Golden Retreiver we got from a rescue group. We got him about two weeks after we got married. When we decided to get a second dog we decided to get a purebred we could show.

Now for me, I had been reading about dogs (well, animals in general but mostly dogs) from the time I could read, not just novels, but training books, and other similar type books. I used to walk neighbors dogs throught out my childhood. I had one I walked as a teenager and Deacon was the first dog I trained. No classes, did it from the books I had read. He was a mixed breed dog, Smooth Fox Terrier and Dachshund they thought.

Jim had been a dog handler in the Air Force before I met him, so he had experience with dogs too.

So when we got married I wanted a dog, my parents wouldn't let me have one at home, said it was too hard to move with one. (Dad was in the Air Force.)

when did you see your first PWC,

On TV, the Disney movie "Little Dog Lost". For real the first ones I saw were when we visited the Larklain Kennel in Denver to see about buying a puppy.

when did you get your first one,

February 1980. He was 9 weeks old. Larklains Happy King, we called him Larkin.

how did you learn about them,

From books, I read about dogs and read lots and lots of books on all breeds. I had a list of dogs I liked and corgis were on that list.

What did you do to get started,

Found a breeder and contacted her. Bought our first puppy and followed her instructions for handling classes, obedience classes and shows. Also, we would go out and visit and talk "dogs". Help her with her kennel chores.

And yes, while she did have a kennel it was not a puppy mill. It was a show dog kennel. A big difference. And she only had Pembroke Welsh Corgis. Not multiple breeds.

how long after that did you start to breed,

A year later. Now days I wish I had waited a bit longer. I had much, much more to learn.

We bought our second corgi, a female, who had already had one litter. We listened to the advice of the breeder and she helped us with questions, docking, ect. with that first litter. Also, I read the book "The Complete Pembroke Welsh Corgi" cover to cover shortly after getting our first corgi. I read it every year cover to cover again for sevearal years.

did people try to tell you not to do it.. how did you feel

No, since we didn't have things like the internet then. And we were already working with one of the top breeders in the breed.

why did you want to breed PWC

To have puppies of my own to show. Same reason I do it now, to try to attain that "ideal" corgi.

tell about your first litter of puppies

My first litter was from my first two corgis, Larkin and Kristie, and if I knew then what I know now I'd have not bred those two dogs. There were better males I should have used with Kristie. However, we bred them and have had some nice dogs because of that. Most of my current dogs go back to that breeding some how.

The puppies pictured under my screen name are 7 generations from that first breeding.

Kristie didn't have any problems with whelping, which I knew because she'd already had a litter. She was an excellent mom and I learned from her how things should be. From then on if a whelping wasn't like hers I knew something wasn't right. (Although there was one stillborn puppy.)

Kristie also weaned her puppies at 6 weeks herself.

Now, since then I have learned I was very lucky, as I have lost puppies and a few whole litters. Had emergencey and planned c-sections. Had to supplement or hand raise puppies. Now days b*tches like Kristie are few and far between.

any problems along the way

Like what? I took time off to raise a family, showing and breeding only when we had the time and money. So I have not had the "success" that some breeders have had, not the number of Champions that others have. I have had entire litters that did not survive and finding out why took some time. I have had family or personal problems that have taken precidience over showing so some dogs who should have finished their championships didn't.

Even when I wasn't actively showing I was still reading and talking with other breeders/exhibitors and doing rescue. Still learning, and I am still learning.

Peggy

[tandemgal]

Thanks Debbie and Peggy for sharing your stories.

The steps you have both outline showing the real life, time, problems and success have helped put into prospective the commitment needed to start on the road to becoming a good Breeder.

[Emmye]

Thanks you Debbie and Peggy for sharing your stories...

I two have been reading a lot about the breed- I do have to admit that for some reason either I miss read something or someone told me they were born with no tail.. I have now learned that is not the case and that they are docked.. I feel a little silly about that.. BUT LIVE AND LEARN..

I will keep reading and talk to as many people as I can find--
I have heard of a breeder in Detroit area through a friend that I want to talk to, and once I have Emmye papers I will know more..

Thank you

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by tandemgal

The steps you have both outline showing the real life, time, problems and success have helped put into prospective the commitment needed to start on the road to becoming a good Breeder.

One thing you all need to know, is that for us, dogs have become our lives. I live, breathe, eat and sleep dogs. We have had to give up vacations as you can't board a whole pack (well, I can't afford to anyway). Getting someone to come in and take care of them isn't very feasable either.

For years Jim and I did not go to out of state shows together. We weren't able to do that until our oldest was old enough to take care of the dogs at home. And willing to do so.

You have to at times take off time from work for vet appointments. People who work take time off to be with puppies for the first week at the very least. I've been lucky that I haven't had to work outside the home. For me someone is with the puppies 24/7 for the first 3 weeks. I don't leave them home alone until they are three weeks old. Even then they need to be fed and cleaned up several times a day, so we don't go away for long. A pregnant female needs to be watched the last week of her pregnancy and you need to be with her when she delivers. Corgis need help with delivery and with getting puppies started to breathe.

Even day trips are limited as the dogs need to go outside, so you can't be gone from home for more than 8 or so hours at a time.

There are lots of concerns when you become a "breeder". It's much like becoming a mom or dad. It's a full time job.

Peggy

[glencorgi]

Here's another story to think on that a breeder granted permission to share. This was sent to me in regards to a similar topic on another list.
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Quick overview: I've had/bred/shown pems for almost 20 years now.* With roughly 17 litters under my belt in that time, I've only had one C-section necessary, and have generally had pretty good luck & instincts...* I've never had huge litters as some people seem to (my largest ever was 7), and probably average 3-4 pups.* (2 singleton litters, 2 2-pup litters, etc.)*
*
The ammo I mentioned was mostly accrued during the last 4 years.* I had a Champion bitch I'd obtained from another breeder I know very well (on an agreement from her breeder to co-breed & split two litters).*She produced two litters easily, free-whelped both, was a wonderful Mom, etc.* Her breeder "signed off", and I attempted to breed her again for a litter all my own...* Since she had been such an easy brood bitch, I went the fancy route of using frozen semen from a well-known stud dog now "gone over the bridge",(who I had known* when he was alive).* So - now I had to go the ovulation timing route thru the vet, and the stud fee*for the owner of the frozen "straw" , which was to*be PICK PUPPY (ouch!).* And the fee to the storage facility, as well as the rental of the liquid nitrogen tank with the goodies.* And surgical implantation directly into her uterus.* And - about $2,000+ later - it didn't work...* BIG OUCH!
*
OK - next season, live Champ dog close to home - it's his first attempt at dadhood, but that should be OK we decide.* Seems to go well (AI on the spot) but...* no pups.* Doesn't take.* Next season: live on-sight dog - fertility specialist - ovulation timing - surgical implant - $2,000 + = no pups again.* By now, this bitch is 5 years old, and I decide she's done her thing, there must be some reason she isn't doing "it" again, and I have her spayed.* After all, I have her daughter from her second litter, who is being shown and nearly finished.* (A litter sister, who was the co-breeder's pick, has already finished... - nice litter!)* OK, daughter finishes, OFA/good, CERF, etc., etc. - 2 1/2 years old, here we go!* I drive from Oregon to Calif. and leave her to have her bred to a Ch. dog there.* Ten days later, I drive back down to pick her up.* At 30 days, a vet friend of mine ultrasounds her and announces she has AT LEAST 10 PUPPIES - Yikes! Wow!
*
All is well - she eats like a pig - starts to look a bit porcine, actually - getting large, round, feeling good - and then....* about*6 1/2 - 7*weeks, she gets strange about eating.* Not like she doesn't have room, but more like she doesn't feel well.* Hmmmm - Over the next few days, she actually starts to look smaller somehow - dropped? no...* just smaller.* Not right...
*
After talking with my vet (on a Sunday morning, of course, when the office is closed...) we decide to ultrasound her the next afternoon.* She tries to reassure me when I say I think she's lost the pups, because there would HAVE to be discharge...* That's right, because about an hour later my bitch*comes in from outside with yucky black stuff all over her pants.* (10 minutes later I wouldn't have known, because she cleaned herself up before I could).* Another call to the vet (tears) & the doc calls in a prescription to a local pharmacy for antibiotics.* We'll just keep the same ultrasound appt. for the next afternoon.
*
The next morning, I have one very sick bitch.* She can't stand on her own, has a "vague" expression in her eyes, and her rear muscles start to shake & tremble uncontrollably.* We FLY to the vet...* She now has really yucky discharge as well...*
*
An hour later - after vet exam, ultrasound, and diagnosis of open pyometra - she is emergency spayed.* Another $1,000, no puppies, etc.* I have no idea how much I spent to show her, with entries, travel, handlers, etc., but it ain't cheap!* A month later, she went to live the life of riley with friends of mine in California who previously had 2 pups from me, gone now to old age, and had wanted one of hers...* They gave me $350 for her to help with vet bills (LOL) and paid her flight there.* I could have gotten more for her if I'd waited & tried to, but they are a wonderful home, and that's what I wanted for her.*
---------------

More to think on ...

Debbie
*

[Chip's Mom]

Chip's breeder has a bed set up in the birthing room and stays there just about 24/7 during the last week before puppies are born. She has a small part time job to help pay the expenses for her dogs but it is a late evening job and she said that she never takes a vacation or goes away during the day for very long because of her dogs. She has told me stories of different things that can occur when her dogs have puppies and it is not an ordeal I would want to go through also late night trips to the vets for C sections. From what I have heard Corgis have a tendency to have big pups. I have also heard that puppies are in line in the uterus similiar to link sausage chained together and there is a cut for each puppy that has to be taken by C section. Is this true, Peggy?