Does anyone no anything about this Corgi

[Emmye]

I did not say the money mattered to me I said he said he would pay me for them.. for all the work I will have done...taking care of mom and babies...

I just talked to a friend who has done dog bussiness with him and she said he is very honest when it come to his dogs...

I guess I am going to take a break for awhile sort what I have learned, talk to him more ask LOTS of question and I will talk to all of you later

Thank you you have given me a lot of stuff to think about

[Chip's Mom]

Good job and excellent post - Bayoucorgi

From what i understand this little girl has been in four different homes in 2 years and somehow the original owner has kept track of her and still owns her legally. Something is wrong with this picture.

once those precious little pups leave your home no matter how well you investigate, question or give the third degree, the risks of these little pups falling into hands of people who just want to make money or don't want the responsibility are too great. I feel sorry for this little girl. There is too much emphasis on breeding and not enough on loving a pem and making up to this little girl the life she has lead in four different homes - just my opinion - you may take it or leave it but I love my boys and it breaks my heart every time I get the suspicion that all is not well for a little corgi pup.

[Chip's Mom]

Yes, he is very honest - just shuffles this little dog all over the countryside.

[glencorgi]

Oh man, is the handwriting ever on the wall.

Originally Posted by Emmye

What are the right reason to breed for.

Some one said once to Improve on the breed...

Don't you think that if some one purchased two dogs both with ch in their lines and wants to breed them that that would be there goal..

Experience says no, it isn't necessarily their goal. I've fielded these calls when I worked the breeder referral line and I am also on the cleaning up end of such arrangements as you are contemplating entering into because of my rescue work. I've also seen such arrangements go ugly when ethically challenged, shall we say, show people set up people as yourself to use as their "satellite." Championship lines - advertising gimmick to be able to ask more $$ for puppies for some.

I'll ask you to step outside the emotional investment of the situation and look at it objectively. Based on what you have said, there was this gentleman who owned Emmye and for whatever reason, their personalities didn't mesh or in your words:

According to what I know- One of the girls at the vets office know Emmye owner and he was saying how him and her did not get along- but he has other Corgi's and they are great- he says that he bought her and a male from two different good blood lines.. to breed..

So the lady at the vets office said let me see if she would fit in my family ,well she has a lot of Dogs and after a week she decided that one more was just to much and that her other dogs were having a hard time with a new dog. So she was telling my sister in law this and she said well I will take her home with me and brought her home, well she has two dogs and her first baby on the way this summer so she was going to ask around to her family well we live next door and when we met now Emmye we fell in love and that is it.

You are her third home and throughout this shuffle the original owner has kept a string attached to her because he wants puppies out of her. (Bayou - hope that clears up your questions about the missing pedigrees and trail of ownership.) Now the original owner didn't know you from Adam. For all he knew you could have been the biggest puppy farm in the state or an unethical breeder cashing in on "rare long-haired corgis" (aka fluffies) or doing your own "designer" dogs like corjacks or corgles or whatever.

Fortunately she found herself with you and not out of, or because of any screening or interest in what was the best for Emmye's welfare on the part of the original owner. I can say that because of this statement:

He also said that I could have as many puppies as I wanted and if I wanted to sell them I could or he would buy them from me and sell them himself.. seeing how I was going to be doing all the work of taking care of Emmye and the puppies...

Another reason I can and will say this is because he has asked you, who knows nothing of the breed or whelping puppies or any of the long lists of things you need to be aware of when undertaking this type of responsibility for this breed, to breed him a puppy. Temperament is very much inherited and IF he couldn't live with Emmye's personality, then odds are slim he is going to be able to live with one of her puppies either. Would you want one of Emmye's puppies *you* brought into the world to be passed off and shuffled around as she was and end up in a place like I first described? It could happen and more to think about.

He does show them -well he has a handler and her future hubby is on the road to great things too..

So why is Emmye not out with the handler and being shown? What has she done in the ring so far? It is just as important for her worth in the gene pool to be evaluated as it is his.

I really do not no what to say-- I hear what you guys say, what he says, what other say about him, Emmye, and I am very confused as what to really do... I have till July to figure it out...

You may or may not have until July to figure this out and IF you are planning on bringing a litter of puppies into this world - in the best interest of Emmye and that future litter - NOW is the time to do it. You'd best get everything spelled out in writing from her original owner, who on paper is still her owner. What happens if she comes in season early or has a split season or comes in late or even misses? There's been enough unsettled in her life that the stress of which could cause any one of those things to happen, so you may have less time than you think to have her health clearances done.

Thank you please do not think i am not listening to anything you are saying- I am-

My head is just whirling with all this information and trying to make a choice that is best for Emmye. me, him...

<IMO>, the two that matter in this equation are Emmye and you. What's best for him, the original owner; he forfeited any right to that consideration when he let Emmye go in the fashion he did. TRUST me, IF a litter out of Emmye and a puppy from was something he really wanted, there are any number of ways to handle that, each more responsible than what he did. Nothing in his actions speaks to the best interest or welfare of Emmye or any puppies she might have. The two who have the most to lose are Emmye and you, he's basically in a win/win seat.

PLEASE know that is not about MONEY for me or him he wants a great puppy to show

Right.

and I think that would be fun to learn too..

Then seek out your local kennel club and get at it. You could start with Emmye IF the appropriate paperwork was done. Another flag about this situation, should have been done already.

Donna, none of this is a personal attack on you at all. I've watched situations such as you have found yourself in unfold far too many times; new owners be used and the losers are the dogs and the humans in your shoes. Emmye has become a treasured part of your life and family and the big question you need to ask yourself is, are you willing to lose her? (And I don't necessarily mean in whelp.)

Debbie

PS: As to more I know of Emmye's family tree - she has an uncle with severe allergy problems and also has had some orthopedic problems. She has an aunt, that has had some very severe UTI issues - crystals and stones. These kind of things aren't going to show up in winning show results.

[corgimom]

Emmye,

What is it about this man that makes you want to accomodate him, if it's not about the money? - you don't even know him personally, right? Just your mentioning that a friend of yours told you that he is honest in the business of his dogs tells me that you really don't know much about him, other than through word of mouth.

Was there some verbal agreement between you two where he told you that you could keep Emmye only if you agreed to breed her for him? I am wondering if you are somehow worried that he will want to take her back if you don't agree to do this for him; and I am sure you love her dearly now as she has become a part of your family.

Do you have the final say in whether she is bred or not, by that I am asking, are you now her sole legal owner?; and if you decide not to breed her, will he be okay with that?

Linda

[Bayoucorgi]

Well, Donna, if you read this - after saying you are taking off (again) - think about this. Why in the world would all these knowledgeable people who REALLY DO KNOW dogs, Corgis, showing, competing, training, rescue, pets, contracts, heartbreaks, tragedies, and joys too, spend all this time talking to you and sharing their wisdom with you?

We aren't going to make a buck whether you breed Emmye or not. WE can HONESTLY say we don't care about the money.

Even if this breeder guy is honest (which doesn't seem likely), he is NOT organized if he doesn't have paperwork. He is not knowledgeable if he doesn't know the strengths and weaknesses of his dogs. He is not responsible if he doesn't get clearances. He is not smart if he doesn't have contracts protecting his interests. And he certainly has proven with his ACTIONS that he doesn't care about the welfare of this dog or the breed.

I have a question for you, why do you even ask us what we think and what you should do if you decide to stop posting and "think" whenever we tell you like it really is and what you don't want to hear?

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Dillydoodle

Not every dog should be bred regardless if they come from a long line of champions...

You're exactly right. Morgan has a sister, Kelsey. Kelsey has been shown and has some points towards her championship, including one Best of Breed win.

However, as she matured, I became less than impressed with her structure and therefore have stopped showing her and have decided to have her spayed without ever having been bred.

Same pedigree and parents as Morgan but not the same quailty in her structure, so not a dog that should be bred.

Peggy

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Jane Austen

It occurred to me that most reputable breeders use championship stock?

That depends on what one means by championship stock. Some use that to mean one or both parents, some mean a champion somewhere in the pedigree.

Doesn't that mean that we all or nearly all have champs in our dog's bloodlines?

Yes, I'll bet nearly all have a champion somewhere in the pedigree. However, if it is more than three generations back (great grandparnets) it doesn't count for much. That's too far back to have much, if any influence on the puppy's genetic makeup.

Peggy

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Chip's Mom

Some people breed their dogs simply because they have a CH in front of the pedigree when in reality they never should be bred in the first place - it seems the same as some hobby breeders to me.

No, the hobby breeders are those of us who show their dogs. They breed and show for a hobby. Most of your reputable breeders are hobby breeders.

You're thinking of what we call "back yard breeders", they breed what they have in their back yard sometimes just to produce puppies, sometimes to make a bit of extra money, sometimes because they think "everyone" should have one, or to get their "investment" back, or because they didn't alter the dog and she got pregnant.

Peggy

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Emmye

What are the right reason to breed for.

Some one said once to Improve on the breed...

As Debbie often says, the breed is not in trouble. Doesn't need improving.

Don't you think that if some one purchased two dogs both with ch in their lines and wants to breed them that that would be there goal..

Not necssarily. Two champions can produce pet puppies and more often than not they do. It's the lesser number of puppies that usually make it to the show ring not the majority. And a very rare litter that is all show prospects.

He does show them -well he has a handler and her future hubby is on the road to great things too..

He shows? What is his kennel name and who is his handler. That would tell us a lot about who he is and the quality of the dogs he's showing.

Will he require the health tests on Emmye before she's bred? And who will pick the stud dog?

Peggy

[Bayoucorgi]

Peggy, as I understand it this guy also has the male dog he wants to breed Emmye to. Apparently he bought both the dogs from different "Ch." pedigrees and wants to breed them together.

This is bizarre to me. I would never in my wildest dreams buy two young dogs and decide before they matured that they were complimentary enough to be a planned match. IME (in my experience) I have kept a promising girl from my litter, grew her up, got her clearances, eval'd her continually, had people I trust eval her, trained her, worked with her and then decided what I wanted to get more of or less of and then researched pedigrees, personally went over several dogs I liked, saw them move, saw them work, asked a lot of questions of the stud dog owner. Asked others who know the dog, the pedigree, and the owner; and preferably also asked people who have used the stud dog before me, THEN did several pedigree "stacks" to see what I liked in my finalists - and then maybe we did the breeding.

btw I did have a registered kennel name for many years "Triune" - Three in One, but I wasn't a puppy mill. I just wanted to be sure no one else used the prefix.

[MrsGrace]

I am SO GLAD to have you all as resources. If nothing else, this thread has reinforced in me all the reasons why I will NEVER get in to breeding dogs. (NOT that I had planned to.. EVER!) But holy cow... I am so type-A about things, researching them to death before making a potential decision, I'd never find a stud/b$tch good enough!!

I'm going to be picky enough as it is for this new member of my family, I want to enjoy and focus time and attention on my new sweetie!!

And to be quite honest, this entire story/situation just smacks of... something being majorly wrong to me. When it doubt, don't do it. Period. This goes for ANYTHING. Take a breather, take a step back, take your time... and if you ever feel pressured or as if something is wrong, just say no. No one who is reputable should presssure you or have to talk you in to anything.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Bayoucorgi

This is bizarre to me. I would never in my wildest dreams buy two young dogs and decide before they matured that they were complimentary enough to be a planned match.

I agree. You might have an idea where you'd like to go, but until you know the assets and faults of the female it's hard to pick which male would compliment her.

btw I did have a registered kennel name for many years "Triune" - Three in One, but I wasn't a puppy mill. I just wanted to be sure no one else used the prefix.

Most puppy mills don't have kennel names, well, they do but don't necessarily use them in naming the dogs. People who show are the ones that use kennel names or kennel prefixes in naming their dogs.

Lack of a kennel prefix in the name is a good clue your dog isn't from a reputable breeder.

Mine is Taflar, a combination of our first two dogs Taffy, a Golden and Larkin, our first Pembrke.

Peggy

[glencorgi]

In the context of "registered" or "licensed" kennel as originally used to which Peggy responded, that is different than a registered kennel name or prefix. And depending upon legal requirements where one lives, hobby breeders may have to be licensed by their state or county. That is different than USDA licensing, which was more the intent of the context of the original reference. Those are the commercial type breeding facilities and rarely use any kennel prefix.

Debbie

[Chip's Mom]

You are correct Peggy - backyard breeders is what I meant to say.