Bittersweet News

[LaRositaMonita]

The puppies are here. Unfortunately, we are not doting, smiling, or squealing as much as we would like... and, if anything, we need some good advice.

I will preface this by saying that the 10+ puppies post from two days ago was made under the impression that we saw and had confirmed that this many pups were inside mommy. Not so much...this was just based on our breeder and her vet's external impression of what was going on.

Our mommy dog currently has five living, breathing puppies. There were seven originally in her litter, but one was what they called a "mega-puppy" or a "water-puppy" - a puppy who has serious genetic defects that cause it to die in the womb and then fill with fluid to a very large size. This puppy wound up endangering the lives of the whole litter and nearly killed the mother. Apparently the vet was shocked beyond belief that mother or puppies even survived. Needless to say, we were glad that mommy and five puppies are okay but very sad about the rest.

Additionally, we had out hopes set on - and were by all accounts led to believe - that we would be able to have a tri-color dog from this litter, as blue merles are really not something we like. Of course, the litter consists of one tri-color male and four merle females. It looks like the male is the dominant puppy of the litter (not something we can handle), and is also probably, if things go as our breeder thinks it will over the next 8 weeks, the show pick of the litter. Needless to say, we are questioning whether or not to compromise one of the things we really wanted in our puppy.

On one hand... we're talking color. That's superficial, really. I at least feel guilty and selfish for being picky. On the other hand, we have put SO much work into this dog search. Shouldn't we be able to get just the dog we want?

I e-mailed our "backup" Pembroke breeder to check in with her, reiterate our interest, and see what she has on the ground so far (ideally, we were set to check back with her at the end of this month). I also talked a little to our breeder about this decision and got a name of a breeder 3 hours away from us who just actually had a litter of 11 cardigans in case she has something available.

What are you guys thinking? Am I being crazy and vain? If my head sounds unclear as I write this, it is. Basically, I've already had a fairly bad and draining day for some other, unrelated reasons and getting this phone call was the icing on the cake. I'm confused and overwhelmed at this point.

[ZdogZ]

deleted by zdogz

[glencorgi]

Heather,

I am so sorry. This is one of the most heartbreaking things breeders face - getting attached to and excited with puppy people and the disappointment that can follow. I learned the lesson not to make promises too early because Mother Nature has the last word and often takes things out of human hands - sometimes it seems to keep us in our place and serve us a big helping of humble pie.

[quote=LaRositaMonita;29323I will preface this by saying that the 10+ puppies post from two days ago was made under the impression that we saw and had confirmed that this many pups were inside mommy. Not so much...this was just based on our breeder and her vet's external impression of what was going on.[/QUOTE]

Unless an x-ray or an ultrasound is done, then best anyone can do is guess and that isn't always accurate at all. Even doing x-rays or ultrasounds, puppies hide, spines are counted twice - until the puppies arrive, then you know for sure. Dams can get huge and only have a singleton. With Hattie, the week early surprise delivery I tended to, she showed early and was huge far too early. Nail biting began immediately as this was her first litter. She was somewhat depressed and stressed. About midway through, she leveled out, even slimmed down and then began gaining normally and perked up. With her, a whole passel of puppies would not have been a surprise. She had four nice size puppies, one definitely premature which we lost. The three, now 2 1/2 week old baby manatees, that's what my MDH nicknamed the puppies are doing great. Conversely, Cher delivered on March 30. She too was huge towards the end and she delivered 10 part of them naturally, and the remaing by c-section. Two were lost at the vets, so that left 8. This was her second litter and she was slow coming out of the anesthia and getting her bearings. Over the course of the weekend and into the next week, we began losing puppies one by one to fading puppy syndrome. We suspect she may have gone septic and wasn't as maternal as with her other litter. Hattie to the rescue! The remaining puppies - now down to three were put on Hattie and she's nurturing them as if they were here own. They are now catching up and thriving.

Our mommy dog currently has five living, breathing puppies. There were seven originally in her litter, but one was what they called a "mega-puppy" or a "water-puppy" - a puppy who has serious genetic defects that cause it to die in the womb and then fill with fluid to a very large size.

Not had one of those, but have seen one a breeder had preserved in a jar.

This puppy wound up endangering the lives of the whole litter and nearly killed the mother. Apparently the vet was shocked beyond belief that mother or puppies even survived. Needless to say, we were glad that mommy and four puppies are okay but very sad about the rest.

Whewwwww! I can relate to the scare and relief.

Additionally, we had out hopes set on - and were by all accounts led to believe - that we would be able to have a tri-color dog from this litter, as blue merles are really not something we like. Of course, the litter consists of one tri-color male and four merle females.

Being a merle fan to you! Just kidding. Blues, people either love 'em or hate 'em. Seriously, tho' unless one is breeding a black to a black and both have tan points, that's not a guarantee one should take to Vegas. All the puppies could have been black or all could have been blue, although usually there is a mix. Technically all black & whites in Cardigans are tris - either tan points (which is what one traditionally thinks of when tri is mentioned) or brindle points and depending on the genetics, brindle points don't always carry for tan points. Not knowing the point colors of the sire and dam, I can't say whether this was sound prediction or not. Nancy should know though.

It looks like the male is the dominant puppy of the litter (not something we can handle), and is also probably, if things go as our breeder thinks it will over the next 8 weeks, the show pick of the litter. Needless to say, we are questioning whether or not to compromise one of the things we really wanted in our puppy.

Okay, I think it is waaaaaayyyyyyyy to early to call which one is the dominant puppy. They are still little lumps right now. I'd no more make a call on personality and temperament on the lumps in my dining room now than I'd guarantee what color puppies are going to be still in the womb. We do have a squealer and they're eyes are opening and they're beginning to get up on their fat little legs - but that's the best I can do at this point. There are some things one can feel structurally and markings of course, but best one can do at this point is HOPE as far as show potential goes.

On one hand... we're talking color. That's superficial, really. I at least feel guilty and selfish for being picky. On the other hand, we have put SO much work into this dog search. Shouldn't we be able to get just the dog we want?

I don't think you are being too picky and yes, color in a sense is superficial, but again you are investing a lot into this puppy on a number of levels. Mother Nature doesn't always cooperate and maybe this is a way of saying, this wasn't the litter for you.

I e-mailed our "backup" Pembroke breeder to check in with her, reiterate our interest, and see what she has on the ground so far (ideally, we were set to check back with her at the end of this month). I also talked a little to our breeder about this decision and got a name of a breeder 3 hours away from us who just actually had a litter of 11 cardigans in case she has something available.

A word of caution, warranted or not, but IF you are really Cardigan people at heart and soul, a Pembroke might not be a good fit for you. A corgi isn't just a corgi isn't just a corgi and I think you realize this. Both breeds are great, just not always interchangeable depending on the household.

What are you guys thinking? Am I being crazy and vain? If my head sounds unclear as I write this, it is. Basically, I've already had a fairly bad and draining day for some other, unrelated reasons and getting this phone call was the icing on the cake. I'm confused and overwhelmed at this point.

Get a good night's sleep and process in the morning. Your excitement was soooo apparent and contagious and the let down you are feeling is crushing at the moment. At least you have a lead for another litter of Cardigans (and hey, I consider 3 hours one way "local" <VBG> - been there, done that and got a couple of t-shirts too). Just catch your breath right now. I am really sorry and can sympathize with you.

Debbie

[LaRositaMonita]

Originally Posted by glencorgi

A word of caution, warranted or not, but IF you are really Cardigan people at heart and soul, a Pembroke might not be a good fit for you. A corgi isn't just a corgi isn't just a corgi and I think you realize this. Both breeds are great, just not always interchangeable depending on the household.

This is my most major concern right now. We still aren't totally sure if we've going to be Pem people or Cardi people. We've met dogs of both breeds, and in many way like dogs of both breeds. In asking about which temperament would be right for us, we've had it emphasized that the individual dog matters SO much more than the breed as a whole. Both the Cardigan breeder and the Pembroke breeder we've talked to have indicated that as long as we're matched with the right puppy and are invested in training it well, we would be happy with a dog from them. If you actually ask us to go with just our guts, I like Cardis a little better and Colin likes Pems a little better!

If you ask us personality-wise what we're really looking for in a dog and feel like it would help with the decision process, we're apartment-dwellers and feel like that is our most important factor where temperament is concerned. We need a dog laid-back enough to be okay with a little less space and without a yard (although we know both breeds are known for their adaptability.) A little barking is okay, and is in general a trainable issue, but we do have neighbors. Additionally, as people we tend to be a little more laid-back, and while I am personally looking forward to taking one nice long walk with my dog each day, playing lots of fetch, and taking trips to the dog park, we want to make sure our pup is content getting playtime indoors and enjoying the art of the lazy Sunday with us, too. Since we're also young and have plenty of friends who like to come over, the "aloof" brand of Cardi is another extreme we'd like to avoid.

Needless to say, I feel like we ideally like typical characteristics of both breeds to varying extents and probably need to just get the right individual dog. Feel free to chime in on this!

Basically, we're still just distraught and not sure what, exactly, to do. As the puppies are born and there is inevitably a waiting list, I'm not holding out much hope for the Virginia breeder...but who knows. Personally, I'm glad I have this community to lean on at this point in our search. Already I can tell that you guys "get" what we're feeling... all of my friends are just not quite sure what the big deal with the gray splotchy doggies is.

[milles2]

I got Tucker, a tri male. I wanted a red and white female. I couldn't be happier. Tuck's breeder hit it right on the head, he was the perfect puppy for me. A great match.

First, I am so sorry to hear about the smaller litter and the loss of puppies. But very happy to hear Mom is doing well with her surviving puppies.

I love my Pem and I love my Cardi. If I had to do it again, I don't know which I would choose.

I have to admit, I am starting to see the difference between male and female. Tucker is a big old lug and Lulu is full of sass. He tries very hard to pull off sass but doesn't quite cut it. Lulu is looking like she may be a total handful.

Believe me Heather, it will come together at some point and a year later you will look back and thank God for your wonderful gift. Whichever and whenever you get your puppy.

Susan

[Bayoucorgi]

Oh Heather, I can feel the distress!

Okay, here's my op. My impression of the cardi vs. pem thing is that they are different breeds that share a similar name. You can't substitute a Smooth Fox Terrier for an American Bull Terrier just because they both have Terrier in their name. But, that said, the dog temperament according to breed is a big "average" - Cardis might be calmer than Pems, but there are Hyper C's and mellow P's. I had Goldens which are described as RUGS because they are so mellow and I had a few high-enders that would give my Pem-nut a serious run for their money.

I'd be more thoughtful about the girl vs. boy thing. They are overall very different. I used to tell people inquiring about a sweet little girl dog that there is a reason they call them b*tches. I prefer boys. Others prefer girls. But you should not switch a gender preference because that is all that's available.

As far as the Dom thing! I definitely go with Debbie on this. NO WAY to tell who they are at a couple days old or even a couple weeks old. And puppy boss in the box IS not an indicator of adult temperament. Volhardt Puppy Aptitude is pretty accurate in my experience and usually we did them at 6-weeks-ish. We had one we called the MEAN GIRL because she harassed, bit, tossed, sat on and generally terrorized her sibs. Miss Maddie is the gentlest, funniest, non-dog aggressive 8yo Agility Star girl now. And we've had more than one mellow box potato grow up into bossy dogs.

Okay, the COLOR thing. If you close your eyes and smell them, would you love it just the same? Of course. When my horse had a bright overo Paint foal with a BLUE eye, I was grossed out. Like devil eyes, yuck! But he became a National Champion. And it turned out to be the cool thing about him that he had a blue eye. It made him different and exclusive. We herders love the merles because they have FLASH. If you show or trial or do agility, you will be memorable because they're different. So I'd not be deterred by color.

Bottom line tho - my DH is the smartest man in the world and he summed it up when we both were just friends and thinking about dating people (not each other), and his advice to me was, "don't ever settle". And I didn't. And I eventually dated him and married him and we're living happily ever after. So, take a breath and make the pros/cons chart according to your heart.

These aren't the last Cardi puppies in the world. Really. It just feels that way right now.

Oh, and my first Golden litter had one of those puppies. We spend Easter Sunday 1986 at the vet having an emergency c-section. Lovely. And when they showed me the "puppy", it was as big as a rabbit. The others were just little gophers.

[Fluffypants]

I'm right there with you Susan! I wanted a R&W male (regular coat), and ended up with a RHT female fluff. And of all the colors, I really didn't like the RHT too much, but now I love them. Of course, I didn't HATE the RHT, just didn't care for it as compared to the other options. But I have really grown to love Jackie's coloring, and I think she's a beauty. And it's true what they say - the girls are bossy!

If the blue merle is REALLY a turnoff for you, then I would say wait. I guess it comes down to whether you want a puppy now, or are willing to wait for another litter. It does sound like you have other breeders you can work with, so maybe the wait will not be too long. Okay - now that I have basically straddled the fence and argued both sides (not very helpful Jess!) . . . I say go with your gut.

And regarding Pem vs. Cardi . . . sounds like you need one of each!

[mtoy]

Originally Posted by Fluffypants

And regarding Pem vs. Cardi . . . sounds like you need one of each!

Now that is some great advice, I'm doing just that myself!

It really is a heart breaker when something like this happens, I'm so sorry. I say the same as the others, think about your choices and then go with your gut. And I must agree on another point - there really ARE other Cardi pups out there, if that's what you decide to do. Good luck!

[TNCorgi]

As much work as you have done I would find what you want. I am a merle girl myself - having aussies and all - but it is not for everyone. Both my pems are red and white and I adore them but they do have a lot of sass. You need to get what feels right and my heart sank for you. I was so excited when you said she had them. i am sure you feel a lot of emotional let down but once it clears you will make a good decision I am sure.

[Bayoucorgi]

Oh and PS, this happened to me before I got my first "good" dog. I already had my spayed BYB girl and was set on this tremendous pedigree for my first really good SHOW dog. I was on the list for second pick show male and the girl had had 10 in her first litter. But this time she only had 2 puppies and the breeder and stud dog owner each kept one so I was left out. The SDO told me about his next litter and I got on that list. It had just been bred, so I had to wait the whole gestation and then the 8 weeks. I thought I would die waiting.

Well, I was second pick show male on that litter too. And that dog whose puppy name was the "Jerk" because they had to pull him out with pig-puller forceps, became Ch. Truly Sundasher Exacta UD, JH, WCX, VCX, Can. UD. He was all I ever dreamed of and more. So it IS worth the wait for the right dog and the right thing WILL happen.

Still, good luck.

[milles2]

Heather: I was just wondering if there was any news????

Susan

[Owen's mom]

Heather, I had been following your questions and rising excitement and am so sorry to read about your disappointment. I knew about the litter and problems from the Corgi-L listserve, but didn't realize you were on the wait list until I read your post.

I think that Glencorgi offered sage advice when she said it was too early to tell about dominance or show potential. I started another thread about puppy temperment vs mature dog temperment because Owen was dominent in his litter and our first vet told me that he was very dominent (she seemed nervous around him), and yet he is and has always been very laid back for a puppy. More experienced corgi people can correct me, but I think you have to consider the dam and sire's temperments as well to get an idea about the overall outcome.

As for color--it sounds like you have very strong preferences and maybe you should go with them. I did have a preference for tri-colored pemmies, but the puppy that was right for us was a red and white. However, my coat preference was not all that strong--I thought they were all great.

We also had a disappointment in our puppy search last summer, but we had a happy ending in September when we got Owen! Good luck to you and let us know what is happening
Cathryn

[Mvons]

Heather, I just hopped on at the library computer while on vacation. My heart goes out to you for the disappointment.

I'm not fond of blue merle's and won't get one when there are so many other colors we like!

No word on our litter yet, probably too busy and we'll hear this weekend or the litter hasn't arrived.

Keep looking as you aren't on a real deadline to get now, is my opinion. I wouldn't want you to "settle" on a puppy just to get one. You would miss out on "loving" the looks and enjoying the puppy stage. This stage goes so quick, you will want to enjoy every minute.

It is hard for you to change breeders if another one has a litter more to your requirements, but it happens because the results of a litter is not concrete. Everyone will understand because they want happy owners = happy pets.

Got to go, hubby arrived to pick me up.

Merrie

[gemjunkie]

I searched out a tri color pem for my first AND a female (yea I know crazy she was the biggest girl). I LOVE her dearly and wouldn't trade her for the world but I should have knows when she would waddle away, lay down, go to sleep and they'd all follow and sleep on her. I've had quite a trying time with this girl but it's FINALLY paying off!

You are really trying to do things the right way, what I should have done! I SHOULD have gone to a better breeder that could have picked the right dog for me rather than going to the BYB and picking the dog myself. Don't get me wrong, I'd NEVER trade her for anything but I think my first personal dog owning experience could have been less trying had I done it that way. I would have had someone to run to for advice and such as well, the way I did it, I don't.

If your heart really says no, wait. I know how waiting is, I've been waiting on another dog and it's KILLING me (yes I've whined about that here enough). I have my heart set on a specific kind/breed of dog and I figure waiting will make getting THAT much sweeter in the end. (It is SOOOO very hard to wait!!!)

Whatever you choose, you will love them no matter what. And all I can really give is my sympathy, I do really know how you feel (yes there is more to my story but due to length of this post, I'll let it be with this). Good luck with your search, may it be shorter than you expect!!!

[disraeli]

Heather - I was sorry to read your news about the puppy problems. It's very hard when you have your heart set on something and are disappointed in such a way.

I agree with some of the others: Listen to your heart. While some of us have grown to love the pups we ended up with (I originally wanted a girl because my family had owned female dogs for so long; I ended up getting Rhys and he has been a really good dog!), it may not be the case for you. Don't take a chance unless you really think your heart can be happy without your dream puppy.

As for Pems vs. Cardis - definitely try to get the one you think you will prefer. Although I second Jessica's suggestion of "get one of each!"