Looking for a puppy recommendation

[Patman]

I'm looking to get a new puppy. I have a very friendly 4 year old male (spayed) Golden Retriever and would like to get a female tri (though personality is probably more important than coloring).

I found a breeder in the Tampa area that has a couple of tri females available. I was wondering if anyone had any experience with them-- Carrie's Corgis Carrie's Pembroke Welsh Corgi Puppies -- or if you have any recommendations of anyone else in the Central or South Florida area who you would recommend. Thanks,

Patman

[MyPemCharlie]

If no one on the forums knows this breeder or a suggested Florida breeder, then perhaps some of the breeders on the forums can help you with a list of questions to ask this breeder before buying. Are you looking for a pet dog, or are you wanting to show?

I know you want to know that the parents/grandparents have hip and eye certifications (to avoid potential health problems). Other than that, folks on the board can help you with Q's regarding temperament, titles, conformation data on the dam and sire, etc.

Charlie and his littermates had some obvious conformation flaws (like butterfly noses) but I got him anyway because the sire and dam were onsite and had the absolute sweetest temperaments I'd ever seen. I wanted a pet dog and companion, so my priority was more on personality and much less on looks.

Those Florida pups sure are cute!

[fogebotom]

My first thought upon looking at her website is the lack of information she offers. Nothing about the bloodlines, parents, health clearances, or even how to call her and talk to her directly. Also she openly gives a price on the puppies and all it includes is a package of Advantage? Nothing about wormings, vaccinations, contracts, health guarantees, temperment testing, etc. She does have information about the breed, but it's taken from the PWCCA website and not sure if she agrees to all she's printed.

My suggestion, contact the regional Pembroke Club in your area--- Sunshine PWCC or the PWCCA(national club) at PWCCA Maybe someone in the regional club knows her and can give you a reference. If you do contact this person, ask for health information- OFA, CERF, VwD etc-not just that her vet looked at the dogs and said they were good. Ask for a pedigree. Ask her for references, and a copy of her contract with guarantees. If you ask more questions about her then she asks about you--run the other direction and go to the regional club for a reference!

Good luck!
Cindy and the crew at Foggy Bottom
www.foggybottomusa.com

[Patman]

I took the list of questions to ask a breeder from the PWWCA site and ask the breeder if she would answer them and here are her answers:

1. No, neither the sire or the dam have been tested for genetic defects.
2. I have a puppy contract that states my guarantee of the puppies, basically they are guaranteed for 2 years against genetic defects.
3. The puppies have had all their shots and have been de-wormed, they come with a health certificate from the vet as required by law.
4. I do not require the puppies be spayed or neutered, I leave that decision up to the new owners.
5. I do not belong to a breeder organization, but my dogs are AKC registered and the puppies are too.
6. The dam's grandparents live at Celestial Star Kennel (Home - CelestialStarKennel.com) and the sire's grandparents live at McCarty's Farm (www.mccartyscorgis.com).
7. The puppies have lived in the house (in a baby pool in my livingroom until last week when they got big enough to escape!) since they were born. Their mother is a house dog as well as their dad. They now have the run of the kitchen during the day and sleep in a kennel in the hallway at night.
8. They have not had any formal training, but they are "encouraged" to use the newspapers we have spread by the back door to do their business! They are pretty good about going on the papers!
And so far, the only question she's asked is if we lived close enough to come and see the puppies.

I have looked on the PWWCA site for members who were breeders and found only one with puppies currently and that breeder wants $1200 for a puppy and I really can't justify spending that much.

I adopted a 4 yr old female from the Sunshine Rescue several years ago and loved her. I've been watching that site and have considered another rescue but I really would love to raise a puppy!

I'm not in a big hurry and can wait a while for the right breeder, puppy and price but I don't want to wait longer than I have to.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Patman

I took the list of questions to ask a breeder from the PWWCA site and ask the breeder if she would answer them and here are her answers:

1. No, neither the sire or the dam have been tested for genetic defects.
2. I have a puppy contract that states my guarantee of the puppies, basically they are guaranteed for 2 years against genetic defects.
3. The puppies have had all their shots and have been de-wormed, they come with a health certificate from the vet as required by law.
4. I do not require the puppies be spayed or neutered, I leave that decision up to the new owners.
5. I do not belong to a breeder organization, but my dogs are AKC registered and the puppies are too.
6. The dam's grandparents live at Celestial Star Kennel (Home - CelestialStarKennel.com) and the sire's grandparents live at McCarty's Farm (www.mccartyscorgis.com).
7. The puppies have lived in the house (in a baby pool in my livingroom until last week when they got big enough to escape!) since they were born. Their mother is a house dog as well as their dad. They now have the run of the kitchen during the day and sleep in a kennel in the hallway at night.
8. They have not had any formal training, but they are "encouraged" to use the newspapers we have spread by the back door to do their business! They are pretty good about going on the papers!
And so far, the only question she's asked is if we lived close enough to come and see the puppies.

I have looked on the PWWCA site for members who were breeders and found only one with puppies currently and that breeder wants $1200 for a puppy and I really can't justify spending that much.

I adopted a 4 yr old female from the Sunshine Rescue several years ago and loved her. I've been watching that site and have considered another rescue but I really would love to raise a puppy!

I'm not in a big hurry and can wait a while for the right breeder, puppy and price but I don't want to wait longer than I have to.

This is not a reputable breeder. Not all reputable breeders will want $1200 for a puppy. That is a show prospect price not a pet price.

I agree with Cindy, contact the Sunshine PWCC and ask them for a referral. Not all reputable breeders belong to the PWCCA but they WILL be doing the health testing.

If you're looking for a bargin, remember you will have this dog for 15 years or so and that in the long run a healthy puppy is more of a bargin. A puppy from a puppymill or back yard breeder (meaning irresponsible) you don't know what you're getting. Might be healthy, might not. And they're not chosing the parents on anything other than that they're both the same breed. So they're not breeding to the standard, not trying to improve on the current generation. No goals for breeding other than to produce puppies and make money.

Contact the Sunshine club and talk to some of the breeders in Florida.

Or maybe consider a rescue corgi. I know Sunshine gets quite a few into rescue.

Peggy

[MyPemCharlie]

Some of those answers sound similar to the breeder from whom I got Charlie, except that she did have her dogs' hips tested 'Good'. She also required a spay/neuter agreement on her pet-quality dogs which I appreciated. Charlie came from a ranch where the people were more interested in breeding Quarter horses, and then bred their Corgis as a sideline. However, they do have a reputation and demand for their dogs as good-quality farm/ranch working AKC Corgis (just no focus on "show" dogs). She was asking $500-$600, but did give me a choice of 4 out of 6 remaining puppies at a discount when I asked.

The other breeders I spoke with were asking $800, $1200 and up for pet quality pups from better pedigreed lines. Since I was wanting a "pet", I did compromise on the breeding history. But, so far, Charlie is exactly the dog I wanted! I can't imagine a better pup.

Sounds like 'Carrie's Puppies' is more of a hobbyist and definitley not a "top-of-the-line" breeder, but if you're just interested in a pet companion Corgi, you'll probably be ok there. You might look around a bit more, especially if this is the first litter/breeder you've inquired about. Otherwise you could see if her price is negotiable.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by MyPemCharlie

The other breeders I spoke with were asking $800, $1200 and up for pet quality pups from better pedigreed lines.

As far as I know, a pet price is around $800-$900. I've been quoted $1200 for show prospects.

Sounds like 'Carrie's Puppies' is more of a hobbyist and definitley not a "top-of-the-line" breeder,

A hobby breeder is one who breeds and shows for a hobby. For the most part your reputable breeders are considered to be "hobby breeders".

This gal is not a hobby breeder, she is what we call a "back yard breeder" or small time puppy mill. Depending on how often she breeds.

A "back yard breeder" is someone who breeds their dogs for a little extra money, as a sideline; or just because they want puppies and think everyone should have a corgi puppy if they want one.

They are not reputable breeders sinced they don't normally do health tests, don't screen buyers and don't require spay/neuter or use contracts. If you have the money you get the puppy.

This gal does not ask questions concerning the home life to try to match the puppy to the home. She's not using the limited registration and she's not requireing a spay/neuter contract. So IMO, NOT reputable/responsible/ethical.

but if you're just interested in a pet companion Corgi, you'll probably be ok there.

Why is it ok to go for a lesser quality just because you want a pet? Your puppy should still have a good background and come from a breeder who cares enough about thier puppies to do health tests and do screening to make sure the puppies go to good homes. (Not puppy mills or who knows where!)

You might look around a bit more, especially if this is the first litter/breeder you've inquired about.

I agree, ask around a bit more. Talk to reputable breeders, not all are asking high prices. You might be surprised.

Peggy

[MyPemCharlie]

I noticed a wide range of prices when I was looking for a puppy, from $250 to $2000. There is a regional difference in price, depending on the number of breeders to number of buyers. You also have to assume that the premium priced dogs (within a particular region) come from reputable professional breeders and the underpriced dogs from backyard hobby breeders. (And I refer to backyard breeders as "hobbyists"...no offense intended with the difference in our terminology.)

<Why is it ok to go for a lesser quality just because you want a pet?>

Let's say the going rate from a top-of-the-line, or professional, breeder is $800 in Florida for a pet quality dog. But the buyer's budget doesn't allow for that. So the options are to buy from a lower-quality line, get on a long waiting list for a pure breed at the local animal shelter, or look for a rescue.

Odds are that since "Carrie the backyard breeder" doesn't screen her buyers, more than one of her puppies is likely to end up at a shelter or in a rescue program. In that case you end up with one of Carrie's puppies anyway, but now you really don't know its background. That's why I suggested it was probably "ok", but to shop around and talk to other breeders.

I know this is a very sensitive subject. I volunteered at the SPCA for a few years and am well aware of the sad stories (for the dogs) that result from poor breeding, poor buyer screening, etc. Carrie should not be breeding her dog. However, the puppies are here and will either be purchased through her, or through an animal shelter or rescue group if she can't place them. The odds of them being "healthy" or "unhealthy" (since Carrie isn't testing) are the same odds as buying any puppy from a shelter or rescue.

The main problem is that the AKC has almost no standards when it comes to breeder requirements. They should require higher standards from breeders to show proof of excellent breeding before they allow registration of puppies. As of now, they are just passing out AKC registrations like napkins at a cafe. Unless AKC changes the rules, there will be lots of "pure breed" dogs around that do nothing to improve the breed standard.

Sorry, I got on my soapbox. I do agree with you on most every point, and my intent is not to start a big debate.

[Michael Romanos]

Price of Corgi pups sometimes equates to their true value in relationship to the market, but only sometimes. Corgis are the cheapest pure breed to buy in New Zealand. Taylor cost me $500 and he was from top stock and with no known defects or imperfections. I would expect to pay $400 -$800 here for anything from a Corgi who obviously would not be of show quality and/or with no regustration papers, to an almost certain 'show stopper.'

[glencorgi]

Okay, my turn on the soap box. The individual breeder in question here is not breeding as a hobby, but rather more as vocation. Using "the puppies are here and someone is going to buy them, why not get one" logic is only proving to the breeder she has a market, Pembrokes are a lucrative breed and so she's going to continue to breed. The results will be cleaned up down the road in many cases by Sunshine PWC Rescue.

Even with all the testing in the world, breeding is still something of a crap shoot as Mother Nature always gets the last word. HOWEVER, the big difference is with a reputable responsible Breeder, should something uncontrollable occur, that Breeder is going to be there for you. Reputable, responsible rescues will also offer that same support network even though "we" (and Peggy and I deal with the results of these every day on the Corgi Rescue list) have no part in how our rescues came into the world.

AKC is only as good as the individual doing the registering. IF they have no standards, ethics, and are irresponsible but fill out the required paperwork correctly; then the litter can be registered. AKC is a great scapegoat, by blaming them for all the breeding woes it takes individual responsibility out of the equation. But until John/Jane Q Puppybuyer begins putting as much into researching a pet as he/she does the latest game system there aren't going to be many changes. Additionally, AKC isn't the only registering game in town. Another issue is owner responsibility and retention regardless of the source of the pet.

"Unless AKC changes the rules, there will be lots of "pure breed" dogs around that do nothing to improve the breed standard."

The breed standard CANNOT be improved, it is the blueprint for the perfect specimen of a breed. What you probably mean to say there will continue to be poor examples of the breed standard being bred.

Debbie

[Cheetah]

Shippo's breeder sells all her puppies (show OR pet quality) for a flat $600. The parents are both health tested and titled. Puppies are all started on socialization, desensitation (having feet handled, etc.) and potty training, vet checked, microchipped, and first set of shots before arriving at their new homes no earlier than 12 weeks of age. All pups come with a 2 year health gaurantee, pet pups with a spay/neuter contract, and all pups with lifetime support from the breeder.

There are good breeders out there. If I'm not getting a shelter/rescue dog, and instead going the breeder route, I expect no less than the above. They're not always close either. Shippo's breeder is in Canada and I'm pretty far away lol...

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

Shippo's breeder sells all her puppies (show OR pet quality) for a flat $600. The parents are both health tested and titled. Puppies are all started on socialization, desensitation (having feet handled, etc.) and potty training, vet checked, microchipped, and first set of shots before arriving at their new homes no earlier than 12 weeks of age. All pups come with a 2 year health gaurantee, pet pups with a spay/neuter contract, and all pups with lifetime support from the breeder.

There are good breeders out there. If I'm not getting a shelter/rescue dog, and instead going the breeder route, I expect no less than the above. They're not always close either. Shippo's breeder is in Canada and I'm pretty far away lol...

Thank you for this example.

There other breeders like Shippo's all across the country. That's why I said for her to keep looking. There are reputable breeders who WILL have dogs for less. And some will be willing to work with someone if it's the "right home". Some will take payments, co-own the dog until paid off, ect. A lot of things can be negoiated or worked out if you keep looking.

Shoot, I've given dogs away for free to the right home. Not puppies necessarily but retired adults.

You do not need to go to puppy mill or byb. By doing so, as Debbie says you provide a market for them. And as long as they have a market they will continue to breed.

Peggy

[Chip's Mom]

If nobody bought from byb's, what would happen to the puppies? Are there enough rescue groups available to take them all in? Is there enough "hobby" breeders to fill the demand for corgi puppies and what would the price be then? Isn't that a little like what the animal rights people are trying to do - tell a person what they can and cannot do with their dog. They are just going way to the extreme and want all of the them spayed or neutered, some just want the right to breed to be given to a select few.

I have a different outlook on this then most people, I do believe that people that don't show their dogs can still have healthy puppies that meet the standard. Sure some puppies have flaws but so do some puppies that are bred by the hobby breeders. When you buy a puppy it is a gamble and this lady is giving you a two year warranty so to speak.

My advice would be to drive to this lady's home and look over her facilities and her dogs. If possible, check out the grandparents, find out how old the grandparents are and if they have any health problems. Talk to this lady face to face. You may be surprised that she might ask a lot of questions at that time. You never know. Call her veterinarian and ask for references.

If you check out other forums, you will find that there is health problems in puppies and dogs that come from all walks of life.

[fogebotom]

Originally Posted by Chip's Mom

If nobody bought from byb's, what would happen to the puppies?

It's the law of supply and demand. Yes for a time there will be an overflow of dogs that are not placed and end up in rescue. But these byb's and hobby breeders would stop breeding because they can't make any money doing it.

If the hobby breeders and byb's were very careful, did the health screening and temperament testing to insure that they are staying true to the breed and the standard, I don't think many of us would have as big an issue with it as we do. If those people offered to be mentors, take dogs back regardless of the situation, if those people didn't care that the litter cost them more then what the puppies sold for. If those people refused to sell to a person because they knew they would not be a responsible pet owner, etc. If if if if.....

Being a responsible breeder says that yes, in every litter I will produce pet/companion puppies. I had a litter of six cardigans this summer. Several people said that the entire litter was finishable in the show ring. But I chose to be picky and keep what I felt was the best of the litter. The rest went to great pet homes. One will do agility, one will be a therapy/service dog, one is a 4-H obedience prospect. And all will be altered because even though they were all quality, there were small things that I felt should not be bred forward, and that's why they are great pets now.

Tell you what, do some rescue for awhile and then get back with us about allowing the hobby and byb's to produce puppies to meet the demand out there. Deal with the multitude of health issues, mental issues and training issues from dogs that were ill bred, placed with the wrong people and those that had the cash handy for that impluse buy. The majority of rescue is not due to the responsible breeders and even then, if one happens to get in the system(that's another story), then that breeder steps forward and takes responsiblity for that dog!

On a side note, conversation on a cardigan list last week centered about the lack of good homes for puppies and the fact that many breeders are having a hard time placing puppies. So in turn, many are not breeding as planned. Supply and demand....

Cindy and teh crew

[glencorgi]

Bonnie has a point in that hobby breeders cannot (nor would we want to in many cases) be able to fill the demand for everyone who thinks they want a puppy of a certain breed. That's why there will always be supplier of puppies who will sell to anyone who has the money to buy. That includes byb's, pet shops, kitchen breeders, horsey breeders, etc. and so on. As I said until John & Jane Q begin putting as much thought, time and research into adding a pet to the family as they do on the latest game system, a new vacuum or where to find the latest version of Elmo for Christmas the market is present.

Rescue does clean up after them Bonnie. Several on the Corgi Rescue list have been scrambling to find places for 10-15 of these cast off "breeders" in the past week. I've had several calls to place leftover puppies that didn't sell for the Christmas rush. They don't do like the Breeders Cindy mentioned from the Cardigan list, keep the puppies until the right home comes along for them.

And no, we don't want the privilege to breed left to just a select few. The only ones left breeding should that happen would be byb's, pet shops, kitchen breeders, horsey breeders, commercial breeders etc. Hobby breeders would be made extinct as we are the ones who are trying to obey the laws, breed to the standard, offer a lifetime commitment to any dog of our breeding, produce the healthiest dogs possible by doing appropriate health checks, know our breed and are able to educate potential owners about it, are available to answer questions about behaviors and health issues.

If you check out other forums, you will find that there is health problems in puppies and dogs that come from all walks of life.

The difference is with a responsible and reputable background and beginning; the support is there regardless.

Debbie