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[Michael Romanos]

Linda - there is more of a chance of a vehicle veering off the road and injuring or killing someone walking along the sidewalk as there is a Corgi dying from giiving birth in a controlled environment.

Debbie - what is unethical about advertising an intent to breed? If there is, it's another stupid rule that needs to be changed.

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

Linda - there is more of a chance of a vehicle veering off the road and injuring or killing someone walking along the sidewalk as there is a Corgi dying from giiving birth in a controlled environment.

I'll be sure to pass that along to a Cardigan friend who lost two girls this past year due to whelping complications, both of them at veterinary office when they were lost. Doesn't get much more of a controlled environment than that. This wasn't a novice breeder either, and the vet is a breeder vet of winning Miniature Schnauzers and Scottish Terriers.

Debbie - what is unethical about advertising an intent to breed? If there is, it's another stupid rule that needs to be changed.

Well for one thing it isn't wise to count one's puppies before they're whelped - like counting chickens before they hatch. There is no "rule" - in some places there are laws against breeding, as I mentioned. Plus animal rights activists could make life miserable for someone doing so. Such an announcement could also be construed as trying to defraud someone if deposits were taken before a breeding actually takes place. There are no guarantees there will even be a litter.

Here, reputable breeders do not generally advertise in newspapers - it is just something that as the Brits would say, is simply not done. Announcements are often made on the show lists when litters are born, but no one announces that they are planning to breed b*tch B to stud dog A.

Debbie

[corgimom]

Michael,

You said every time you take Taylor out there is a risk of him getting maimed
or killed, yes, that is true, but I would like to know the chances of that happening versus a dog dying while giving birth to her puppies or the puppies themselves passing away, especially by someone who has never done this
before.

[Michael Romanos]

Debbie - you're back to your game of making it up as you go along. It is patently obvious that no one is defrauding anyone to advertise intent. What kind of payment do you envisage taking place for puppies who might never evolve or make it to the stage of being heatlhy and ready to go. Who mentioned anything about a deposit. You did. How does animal rights activists come into the picture. You're not over-reacting again are you?

All this business about mothers and pups dying. It's just so much negativity. It's a wonder anyone gives birth or is born at all. Life is a risk - and just as I said, walking down the street is very risky indeed and life threatening - but it don't stop most peiple. Taling dogs in cars is very risky and life threatening. Agility is risky and life threatening.

[Chip's Mom]

I think the number 1 consideration is finding good homes for 7 or 8 puppies. That is easier said than done. People will tell you anything they think you want to hear to get a puppy even if they pay good money for one. I am not saying all people are that way but sadly many are. I would say that everyday, Debbie sees the effects these type of people have on the puppies and she has to search for people that will take care of these animals and give them a good home and love them. Also, it is devastating to watch your family pet give birth if she is having a hard time. Especially if you are an inexperienced breeder and not familiar with the procedures and signs of trouble. I agree that all negativity is not good but people need to know all aspects on breeding a family pet and if they want to take the risk. Thank you Debbie for your information and the help you have given to corgis in need.

[corgimom]

Michael,

Debbie is not being negative, just realistic and telling Donsgirl about what
could possibly happen to his Pem, who they adore. If they breed her, she
may come through with flying colors along with her puppies, but then again,
she may not.

Of course life is a risk, I could walk out my front door and get hit by
hail the size of a softball, or a car could drive up on my front lawn while
I am mowing it and I would be done.

She is just telling Donsgirl all the is involved in breeding his dog and now he can make an educated decision as to what he wants to do. Would you allow your child to go through major surgery, that might cost him his life without speaking to at least 2 doctors to learn about the risks involved, or would you just dive into it and not worry about the possible outcome?


Linda

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

Debbie - you're back to your game of making it up as you go along.

No game - just live in reality.

It is patently obvious that no one is defrauding anyone to advertise intent. What kind of payment do you envisage taking place for puppies who might never evolve or make it to the stage of being heatlhy and ready to go.

Obviously you are not aware of some of the scams going around now, several of them involving puppyfind.com. They work along the lines of the Nigerian bank scams. There are at least two under investigation now. Quite frankly, I'd find it really odd to read a classified advertisement along the lines of what you suggested.

"I have an 18 month old purebred Pembroke Welsh Corgi female I am thinking about breeding. If anyone would be interested in a puppy from the litter we might have, please call (555) 555-5555."

Come on now, wouldn't that come across as a bit odd?

Who mentioned anything about a deposit. You did. How does animal rights activists come into the picture. You're not over-reacting again are you?

Yes, I mentioned the deposit, but I also phrased my comments with qualifying words such as - "might, could, can, may" etc.

With the anti-breeding sentiment and MSN legislation sweeping the US it is very prudent precautionary move to check into local regulations regarding breeding a litter. Kennel licenses, breeder licenses and even a permit to have a litter may all be required. Licenses numbers are also required in order to advertise in newspapers in these locales. IF someone doesn't have them, then they are breaking the law and can face fines and even risk having their animals confiscated. Animal rights activists do go through classified ads and check to see if listings are in compliance with local laws and take action against those who aren't. Over-reacting, no - I am well aware of the extent to which ARA's will go.

All this business about mothers and pups dying. It's just so much negativity. It's a wonder anyone gives birth or is born at all. Life is a risk - and just as I said, walking down the street is very risky indeed and life threatening - but it don't stop most peiple. Taling dogs in cars is very risky and life threatening. Agility is risky and life threatening.

Life is risk by definition. The original question was asking what he could expect. Knowing what can (that's a qualified "can") happen makes one better prepared. It does take a certain heart and stomach to be a Breeder and not everyone has it.

Debbie

[Michael Romanos]

Debbie - you have a few problems. One is not being able to think outside the square and another is your wanting to hide away Corgis - Promote not, breed not. And you come up with a barrage of reasons - some which are laughable - to deter good people from these activities.
I have spoken to three leading Corgi breeders in NZ and they all say they have no hesitation in mating and in promoting the mating of healthy Corgi females in order to produce litters of puppies. They say they have never heard of the birth process being of any moderate to great risk for the mother. One had never heard of a Corgi dying from giving birth in NZ apart from one that died of a coronary attack. One said the only thing of concern is the possibility of Von Willebrandts (bleeding disorder) but that Corgi breeding lines can be used as proof that the problem won't occur and individual Corgis can be blood tested before mating. It is a simple procedure.

[BlueNL6]

I don't think Debbie is detering good people from these activities, I think Debbie is trying to deter stupid people from making foolish decisions. (Not saying Pebbles owner is stupid, not by any means, the fact that she is asking quesitons is good) But I don't think breeding is something to be entered into lightly. Yes we need people to breed Corgis, and everyone needs to start out somewhere. But getting all the information including the unpleasant side and risks are important too. I love my girls, we don't have any children yet and they are my husband and mine's life for right now. I love the breed, I think they are the best breed in the world. I promote the breed when people ask, and I'm sure Debbie does too. But I give all the facts the negatives and the positives when I hear someone is wanting to purchase one. Maybe this isn't a problem in other states or countries, but where I'm from Michigan, we have problems with people taking animals they can't handle, then dumping them off at the humane society. (See Animal Cops Detroit on Animal Planet Channel for examples if you have it in your area) I love the breed too much to see that done to them. I promote education for responsible breeding and responsible ownership.

[corgimom]

So Michael,

Any average Joe who has never bred Corgis before, should just do it because
it feels good to do so?

And do you feel that if they want to breed their female that the
Average Joe should at least test their dog for eyes, hips and vWD? OR
is this not something, in your mind, that is important?

Thank heavens their are reputable breeders out there that sell their dogs
on limited registrations so if someone still decides to breed them, their puppies
cannot be registered with the AKC.

What better way to learn than by someone who has been there and done
that and can tell us the truth about situations whether you want to hear
the facts or not. - Thanks, Deb.

Linda

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

Debbie - you have a few problems. One is not being able to think outside the square

*I* can't think outside of the square/box???? Now isn't that a bit like the proverbial pot calling the kettle black? I do realize from being on a variety of corgi lists for a number of years now, that not everywhere in the world does things exactly like we do them in the US. From being on the Pet-Law list, I am aware of breeding restrictions in places like Germany. I knew about the mandatory microchipping coming to NZ before you ever posted about it here Michael. I read posts from breeder/exhibitors from the Netherlands, Denmark, Finland, Norway, England, Wales, Australia, NZ. I have friends who travel the world to judge and listen to them share their experiences. I've read posts of corgi owners from Hong Kong and the Philippines and I have learned that purebred breeding operations there are more along the lines of the commercial kennels in the US which breed for the pet store market. I take into consideration where the individual is and what options are available to them in the types of advice I can offer. And I certainly don't suffer from an ethnocentric version of reality which seems to afflict you.

and another is your wanting to hide away Corgis - Promote not, breed not. And you come up with a barrage of reasons - some which are laughable - to deter good people from these activities.

As I have said earlier, promotion as in advertising corgis like the latest, hottest thing on the car market - ain't gonna happen. As for public education (which is a promotion of the breed(s) mind you), I have spent more hours on my feet working breed booths at shows and breed fairs, run up more phone bills, missed dinners, gotten out of check out lines and given up my private life to talk corgis with people than I care to remember. IF I were trying to hide the breed(s) away, I would have never extended the invitation to one of the forum members to come to the local dog show to meet some dogs and breeders, nor would I have spent the time talking with them I did (which I thoroughly enjoyed).

I have never told Donsgirl not to breed Pebbles, that is a decision they'll have to make, but hopefully they'll now be able to make it with eyes wide open and make informed responsible choices. You sent them to the PWCCA site for breeder/stud dog owners, I clued him in to what he would be asked by those there he might contact.

The barrage of reasons, as you call them, well at least they are reasons and there is foundation for them. And I agree some of them do seem laughable, for instance in Fayetteville, NC now if one is doing a mating in their backyard, the yard has to be enclosed by a six foot privacy fence so no one will be offended by the act should thy happen to be passing by and witness it. That is in the new animal ordinance there. I promise, I can't make this stuff up. And if you don't believe there isn't anti-breeding/breeder sentiment in the US, then I suggest you check out what is going on in Los Angeles County CA, Long Beach, CA, Louisville, KY to name just three. Investigate the No-birth Nation political agenda. IF you don't believe there isn't an agenda to do away with a number of breeds then check Breed Specific Legislation around the world (Italy has our beloved corgis on their dangerous breeds list). Check out Denver, CO and how many dogs have been euthanized there just because they were born a certain breed. Check out guardianship language. You're a journalist, do a little investigative journalism - I'll toss you the first bone on guardianship with this article: "HighNoonforAnimalRightsLaw; The Coming Showdown between Pet Owners and Guardians",Bellwether,* p. 18-22, <http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:7X4AsD5PcpoJ:www.vet.upenn.edu/bellwether/v62/5009.4Bellwether62.pdf.>

I have spoken to three leading Corgi breeders in NZ and they all say they have no hesitation in mating and in promoting the mating of healthy Corgi females in order to produce litters of puppies.

And IF that is the norm in NZ - fine, but you are in New Zealand and that is not necessarily how things are allowed (legally in some cases) to be done in other parts of the world (check out some of the FCI regulations for registration eligibility in Europe) nor necessarily what would be considered the responsible way to do things in the US.

They say they have never heard of the birth process being of any moderate to great risk for the mother. One had never heard of a Corgi dying from giving birth in NZ apart from one that died of a coronary attack.

But they did mention the operative word - risk - a point we've been trying to make and you have failed to acknowledge existed or bash because it was mentioned. Plus, evidently two had heard of b*tches dying in whelp and the third did know of an instance as well from an unrelated complication. To say sure go ahead, breed your girl as you were doing without mentioning any risk, I see as callous and irresponsible. A telling omission here is that no one mentioned they'd never lost puppies, so I would venture to guess they did acknowldege that is a realistic risk as well.

One said the only thing of concern is the possibility of Von Willebrandts (bleeding disorder) but that Corgi breeding lines can be used as proof that the problem won't occur and individual Corgis can be blood tested before mating. It is a simple procedure.

Another big difference is you are talking to people who DO know their lines and what is behind them. A first timer or someone wanting one litter is not going to have that expertise and/or knowledge. Blood tests for vWD as I have mentioned in a thread specifically about that are not considered definitively reliable, nor unfortunately it has been found is our DNA marker in Pembrokes.

Perhaps you missed the question asked by someone who had bred their girl and thought she was beginning labor and wanted to know what to do now. As she never posted again, we are left hanging as to how things went. Hopefully all did go well.

A big difference between us Michael is that my corgi world isn't limited to the quality of breeders with whom you have the fortune to associate and this one forum. I don't have the luxury or privilege of a sheltered existence or view.
Debbie

[Cardiguy]

Great post Glencorgi! Not sure if the administrators have the capability, but in some forums classic posts are classified as "stickys" and always appear.

BTW, in my opinion Michael just took your post literally and completely missed the intent of the post.

[Michael Romanos]

Debbie - this is getting worse. Now it's the fear or risk of losing newly born puppies????? All I can add is what one of NZ's most notable Corgi breeder (who has travelled the world and is a conformation show judge) exclaimed to me: if Debbie is trying to put people off from beeding from their Corgis because of some perceived risk to the mother and any offspring, what would happen if this was an attitude taken throughout the world by dog owners and by the human race in their regard to producing babies.

[glencorgi]

No Michael, the reality that puppies can potentially be lost was included in my original post in this thread. I am not pulling anything new out of a hat. In fact, my early mentors in corgis as well as from other breeds (and yes, they did have as much experience and background as those you with whom you are consulting) forewarned us that one can expect to lose a quarter of the puppies in a litter. This information was not intended to talk us out of breeding or as a scare tactic, rather it was just passed along matter of factly just like the advice on whelping boxes. Now does this mean one loses 25% of every litter - NO! My first Pem litter, we lost 4 of 9 puppies. The first Cardigan litter, there were 8 puppies and all survived. I shudder to think what you would think of the breed round table video that came with a certain brand of whelping box.

I am going to try this one more time. The question was asked as to what to expect if they bred their dog. So I answered the question as to what they could expect and things that can potentially happen from A to Z. I never said this will happen or that will definitely occur. My intent was not to try to talk them out of breeding her, that is a choice and decision only they will make, rather to help them be better informed. That is all.

Debbie

[Michael Romanos]

Debbie - you're a gold mine, but you can very often be over-zealous.
And one has to introduce some kind of balance.

So I decided to concentrate on just three aspects of your responses - costs, marketing and risks. I'm certain there are holes in your summation of these things plus a few others.

Your stock reply when you get a little frustrated, is the cultural differences. I would have though that the USA with 300 million people, huge immigration spurts and dozens and dozens of communities of different races, different religions - some extreme - would, in a mainstream aspect, not be that much culturally different to NZ. So if someone advertises their intention to breed Corgi pups in the near future, has not been done in the USA - then perhaps it could be regarded as an innovative thing to do in the USA and not be "unethical" as you say. Interestingly, the NZ Kennel Club's monthly glossy magazine sometimes carries ads on puppy breeding "intent." The NZKC represents dog management and ownership accross the spectrum. Specialists clubs also do this in their newsletters to members. All four Corgi clubs in NZ have carried these kind of ads in their newsletters.