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[donsgirl]

Hi Everyone,
I have one Pembroke Corgi that is 1 1/2 years old and her name is Pebbles. She is the love of my familys life. We are considering breeding her, but this would be a first for all of us so we are very nervous. Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated.
Does anyone know any breeders in or near the Michigan area that are not only reputable but reasonable as well?
Thank You

[corgimom]

Donsgirl,

I just want to welcome you - love the name for your Pem. I am sure there
is someone who can help you with your questions.

linda

[Jane Austen]

Dear Donsgirl.
I think you will find that the denizens of this website do not take breeding lightly. So I will ask you, why you think you want to breed Peebles? Great name.

[darci]

Welcome to the board, look forward to hearing more about Pebbles.

Glencorgi, one of our members, hopefully will be along tonight and I am sure can give you some wonderul advice regarding breeding as she has some experience that may help you make your decision.

Again welcome, great to have you.

[Michael Romanos]

Hi Donsgirl
What you're looking for is a suitable stud dog - not necessarily a breeder.
You need to find out the nearest Pembroke or Welsh Corgi club to you and obtain details from the club. You can trace the nearest club to you through looking at the national American Pembroke club (PWCCA) website www.pwcca.org

[glencorgi]

Welcome to the forum. As Michael said, what it sounds like you are really looking for is a breeder who offers stud services. You can go to the PWCCA link he gave and find some area members. I do know a couple of very reputable and responsible breeders in Michigan, but neither of them offer stud services. In fact one of them will be at an upcoming corgi picnic in TN and will be taking the two girls she sent down there for a "honeymoon" back with her. If you contact some of the PWCCA members hopefully you will get some sound educational advice, but I also have to caution you might also encounter some rudeness, snobbery and elitism. I have co-owned a stud dog and have been involved in breeding from the b*tch owner side as well. I'm just going to give you a realistic picture of what you will likely encounter and what to expect.

The first question to ask and Jane has already asked, is why do you want to breed her? Often some of the answers are:
1) because we want another one just like her
(doesn't happen, stud dog will be contributing half of the genes and puppies are never carbon copies of their parents)
2) we're so in love with her, we think everybody needs a corgi
(Absolutely not TRUE - no one breed is right for everyone and in the wrong home a corgi is a disaster - from being the rescue chair for my regional Pem club, I can illuminate on that topic if you want.)
3) we want our children to experience the miracle of birth
(Are your children also ready to experience death? Pembrokes are not necessarily the easiest of whelpers and sometimes puppies are slow to get started. You run the risk of losing Pebbles in whelp; you also run the risk of losing puppies after they are born. In my Pem litter of nine (admittedly one I really shouldn't have bred and this was when I was only a couple of years into the breed) I lost 4 puppies due to fading puppy syndrome.

We're just getting started here, so be patient. At 18 months, you need to wait six more months and have her hips x-rayed and evaluated by OFA to be sure she passes and does not have hip dysplasia. ($175+/-) You could have her evaluated now with a series of 3 x-rays done by a Penn-Hip certified veterinarian. ($200+/-) Her eyes need to be examined by a certified veterinarian opthamologist with a CERF exam. ($50+/-) Pembrokes can have a number of eye problems - PPM's, juvenile cataracts, etc. A reputable stud dog owner is going to require these and you will want to see these clearances on the stud dog you choose as well. (See the recent thread called Selling Price on this board.) A stud dog owner is also going to require a brucellosis (doggie VD) test ($50+/- including office visit) and will be able to provide with the results of the test on their dog.

What are Pebbles faults? Is she long in loin, short? How is her rear? Does she move true? What is her front like? Her shoulder layback? What are her virtues? Does she have a good head? Good upper arm length? What is her temperament like? Outgoing or more reserved and or shy? Okay, so you might say you aren't going to be breeding "show" dogs, but all of these pieces fit together to make the soundest puppies possible and even if you are "only breeding pets" - your puppy buyers deserve to have corgis that look like corgis and act like corgis. These are questions a reputable stud dog owner is going to ask. They are also going to want to see a pedigree.

So you've found a stud dog (stud fee $500 - $1000 ballpark - depending on the dog) and now you wait for Pebbles to come into season. When she hits, the stud owner may want you to do progesterone testing (more $ and I'm not sure what the rate for that might be now, I can find out if you want) to know when she will be ready for breeding. Now the b*tch traditionally goes to the stud dog owner's home for the breeding, so there may be air costs involved to fly her there and back. IF you are within driving distance, then Pebbles will be away from home approximately a week. Fresh chilled semen is a common way to do breedings these days, so that requires you knowing exactly when she is ready - contacting the stud owner so she can have her boy collected at the vet's and the semen shipped to you. You'll have to pick it up and then make a dash to your vet's for the insemination - typically you go through this a couple of times. ($$$)

Then you wait. Gestation period is 63 days, but it is not unusual for delivery to begin on day 59. You might want to have an ultrasound to make sure she took ($$) and an x-ray towards the end of the pregnancy to see how many puppies she is carrying. This is a precautionary safety measure to make sure she really has delivered all the puppies she might be carrying. ($$) It also helps to know about size of puppies, if she is carrying a smaller litter puppies can be larger and more difficult to deliver. Larger litters usually are smaller puppies, easier to deliver but you don't want one to get stuck or one to have died in utero and be left in there. Many breeders take there girls in for a shot of oxytocin to have their uterus cleaned out just as a precautionary measure. ($) C-sections are almost routine, sadly, with Pems, so you need to have your vet on call and available should she need one. ($$$) And they rarely deliver between 9AM - 5PM, 9PM and on into the wee hours of the morning is more likely. One of the most devastating stories I heard was shared on the show list years back. This girl was the 5th generation in her line of carefully selected breedings and she was the next step in the program. There was a lot riding on the future of where she was going with her Pembrokes. It turned out she needed an emergency c-section and there were problems with the anesthesia and this Breeder lost her girl and all the puppies. Horror story, yes, but a reality risk that needs to be kept in mind and faced if one is going to breed their girl.

A quiet warm spot with no drafts is needed to place the whelping box. Those can be built or a lot of people use baby wading pools.

Whelping and the birth of puppies - honestly it is one of the most awe inspiring things I have ever experienced, also one of the most heartwrenching. And it is extremely messy and gross. Blood, placentas, water breaking, dam eating the placentas ... Then you have to watch your beloved girl panting, pacing, stressing and keeping an oh so diligent eye that she doesn't go into distress, all a part of it. They can from time to time turn on their owners and so large audiences are not welcome by many of them.

After the puppies arrive, then day 3 you are going to need to do dew claws and tails. Mom will clean up after them, usually, but sometimes she needs a little coaxing to take on this responsibility. Butter on their bums can entice her. The puppies are going to need close monitoring to make sure they are gaining weight and thriving. A baby scale is just part of the whelping supplies. Puppies need to kept warm, no drafts. A chilled puppy is a dead puppy. Back to clean up - you will be going through lots of towels and blankets and a whelping box is one place where those puppy training pads are great. Food and water need to be available at all times for the dam. Some before they whelp can get really picky and finicky about what they eat - and I've heard of some pretty creative diets in that department. This can last for the first few days after whelping too. After about 48 hours then you can take your first breath - still not out of the woods on losing puppies, but the first hurdle has passed.

Weaning around week 3 to 4. And as the puppies grow so does the mess they create - more cleaning and sanitizing. Ideally puppies should stay with mom and littermates until 10 to 12 weeks. You'll have a couple of series of shots that should be given in preparation for their new homes ($).

You are possibly looking at as many as 6 to 8 puppies, if all goes well and everyone survives. Where are you going to find your homes? What kind of screening methods are you going to utilize in placing your puppies? Some stud dog owners require a second right of refusal clause in a b*tch owner's puppy contract. A first right of refusal is that at any time in its life an owner finds themselves unable to keep the puppy they bought from you, it will always have a home with you and can come back to you, no questions asked. IF you would fail to honor this, then the stud dog owner would take the puppy - second right of refusal. Are you going to require spay/neuter of the puppies? What is going to be in your contract?

(And I didn't touch on what should happen if you would lose Pebbles and have to hand rear puppies.)

That you are very nervous, well you should be and I don't intend this as being mean at all. Breeding is serious, should not be entered into lightly. It is definitely not for the faint of heart at all. So the real question I believe you need to ask yourself is, are you willing to risk losing the love of your family's life for a litter of puppies? It is a lot to think about and consider. I hope I helped give you food for more thought.

Debbie

[darci]

Great post Debbie, I knew we could count on you to give fanastic advice.

Theres no way I would consider breeding, it's just not for me, but I am thrilled there are people out there who do.

[Jane Austen]

Yes Debbie, great post, riviting all the way through. We all learned a lot from your experience.
I have seen puppies born and there were almost never any problems. But those were mixed breed dogs. We never had them to a vet, let alone having them xrayed. Corgis must be harder to whelp. So I hope Donsgirl gives this some more consideration. She has six months to think about it.

[glencorgi]

Jane it can go exactly as you've witnessed, but then any of above things can happen with mix breed dogs too. Corgis, Pembrokes more so than Cardigans, can be a little more difficult to whelp.

Debbie

[Jane Austen]

The dogs I was talking about were all outside dogs and that was back in the "horse and buggy age" Growing up we didn't know there was such a thing as a vet. If a dog got sick they just got better on their own. We were blessed with healthy animals. If a dog was hit by a car and badly damaged they were shot.
I would hate to not have a vet to take Duchess to.

[Michael Romanos]

Donsgirl - I hope you are not put off by Debbie in wanting your Pebbles to have puppies.
I think Debbie has overstated things in an effort to prevent the possibilities of more problem owners and dogs down the line. The choice is yours of course. My Pem will be mated with his fiancee in a few months time and the owner of the female can't wait for it to happen and she will be keeping one of the pups.
I don't consider there is any substantial risk of your Pebbles dying in producing a litter. Every time I take my Taylor out for a walk there is the risk of him getting maimed or killed.
The fees Debbie has quoted may not be quite as big as she says. For instance, if you go for a previously untried male dog as a suitor, the fees might not be as great. If Taylor doesn't come up with the goods or only a single pup produced or all but one dies soon after birth, my fees will be waived. Anyway, no one ever said that casual breeding makes money - on the contrary its usually a cost - but a cost that some people are happy with because they enjoy so much the results.
Of course there is a lot of work involved, preparation and some nerve wrenching moments. But that is life.
BY the way, if you want to know if your pups can be easily sold and to seemingly good, secure homes, place ads now of the forthcoming event and see what the response is and what kind of people make enquiries. At the same time as you do this, you may very well be able to keep a register of interest which will save you from any further advertising.

[darci]

I dont feel Debbie was overstated at all, I feel it was very realistic information and not negative at all.
As far as the price goes, it's pretty right on the money for price's in my area.

I would rather someone be honest and tell me upfront what to expect with breeding rather than sugar coating it, that way I could make a truley informed educated decision.

[corgimom]

Michael,

How can you compare the risk of your Taylor dying from be maimed or killed when you take him for a walk to that of a Pregnant Corgi giving Birth?? There is no comparison.

When walking Taylor on a leash you have much more control over his safety versus being able to control the situation where a Corgi is giving birth and the outcome of her and her puppies.

My sister in law does Casual breeding and does it to make money and to justify her getting her dog in the first place. She said breeding her dog puts money in the bank for her own dogs future vet bills.(by the way, I think this is wrong)

Debbie did a very good job and portrayed the possibility of what costs could be and the risk that he could lose his beloved Pem. With Cody's mother, and her first litter, she had 3 puppies, and only 1 survived. With the litter cody came from, all 5 puppies survived, but I was told that his mother became quite ill in the end and that she was not going to be bred again because it would probably kill her - she was 3 years old.

Linda

[glencorgi]

Michael speaks as someone who has obviously never had to pack up the warming box full of puppies and dash off to the vet's with a dam in distress trying to deliver a stuck puppy. Stud fees I quoted would be in line with what anyone from the PWCCA referral Michael gave would charge and very few of them offer their studs to someone who just wants to breed a litter. I also think Michael has shown how seriously he takes the responsibility of being a stud owner and how casually he considers breeding. A good solution for Donsgirl would be for Michael to offer Taylor for stud to Pebbles. This isn't as absurd as it might sound, very doable with using frozen semen shipped to Donsgirl. It could be put into storage until Pebbles is ready to be bred. There are also certain circles in which a stud could likely easily be found for Pebbles, stud fee $300 -$400 or waived for a puppy back or even for splitting the litter. The request was for responsible and reputable sources though, and that is what I gave him.

This bit of advice from Michael also illustrates a cultural gap and his continued lack of understanding of how things are done here. "BY the way, if you want to know if your pups can be easily sold and to seemingly good, secure homes, place ads now of the forthcoming event and see what the response is and what kind of people make enquiries. At the same time as you do this, you may very well be able to keep a register of interest which will save you from any further advertising."

First, there is no guarantee Pebbles would even take. For my first Pem I waited through two missed pregnancies with a Breeder, not a novice breeder either. After the second attempt to breed her didn't take, it was found she had problems which prevented her from becoming pregnant. She was spayed and I later found my Oberon. But this is something that can and does happen.

Advertising for interest in a litter would not be perceived as responsible or ethical here. When I give advice to someone about breeding, I am going to give as sound, realistic and as responsible advice as I can. That is what I did.

Waiting lists for puppies or the "register of interest," many breeders no longer bother with them. What they have found is that more often than not by the time the litter is born, many potential homes have taken the first puppy they came across, they've gotten a puppy of another breed, they've changed their mind altogether, the list goes on and on. So just because someone has a list of even maybe 8 or 9 names, maybe only one or two of them will actually follow through so that leaves the rest of the puppies to find homes for. The same thing happens whenever one's family members have all said they want a puppy. This is reality and a reason some breeders have to ask for deposits as a proof of sincerity. Deposits though, can cause their own set of issues with which to deal.

Now I have assisted with whelping that puppies popped out in a timely manner, easily came around, began nursing right off, and the entire litter survived. There were 8 puppies. The first Cardigan litter we had was this way, although it did take some time for the dam to want to have anything to do with the puppies and she had to be forced to stay with them the first few days before she got with the program. But as I replied to Jane's comment about the litters she saw in her youth, they can go that way. How Pebbles' dam did when she whelped Pebbles' litter would be a good indication as to how easily Pebbles might whelp and another good bit of information for Donsgirl to gather.

The poster asked what to expect and I gave as broad a picture as I possibly could. I'd rather someone be prepared for all possibilities than to expect some Disney version along the lines of 101 Dalmatians or Lady and the Tramp and then meet with heartbreak when things don't go that way.

Debbie

[glencorgi]

A few other things, that really have nothing to with stud fees or whelping; but need to be checked out as far as is it even legal for Donsgirl to have a litter. There are locales in the US where breeding even one litter is not legal. Is a breeder registration required, what are the fees for that? An inspection of your home might be required. So check out the local laws regarding in home breeding to protect yourself as well.

And just in case anyone thinks I'm making any of this up, go to <http://www.akc.org> and check under the legislative alerts for the number of mandatory spay neuter alerts (MSN) there and the costs involved for someone wishing to remain a breeder.

Debbie