Which one would you chose?

[MyPemCharlie]

Ditto on the Science Diet. Among other things, all their foods are bound together with cellulose...a fancy name for sawdust.

[Corgi_Lover]

adults, puppies, and seniors need different amount of protiens, carbs, calories, and so on right? how can all that combine in a bag?

Originally Posted by Peggy

What I am saying is that an all life stages food has to have enough neutrients to meet the minimum requirements for a PUPPY.
Peggy

Minimum requirments...isnt it better to feed regular requirments? wouldnt higher amount of requirments be better for a puppy than minimum requirments?

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by Corgi_Lover

adults, puppies, and seniors need different amount of protiens, carbs, calories, and so on right? how can all that combine in a bag?

Its in there. Have you taken any time to compare ingredient lists and nutritional breakdowns on the various labeled foods? Protein percentages on puppy foods can range from 28% to 32% on average. Adult/All-life stages can range from 24% to 40%. Seniors can range from 22% to 32%. (I have sample bags on hand to look at and compare.) So what isn't being covered in the all-stages formula? Senior formulas are going to have glucosamine and chondrotin listed as ingredients (not recognized as essential by AAFCO and really not enough to adequately supplement), but then so will any number of all-stages formulas. So what isn't being covered?

Minimum requirments...isnt it better to feed regular requirments?

What are regular requirements? AAFCO sets minimum daily requirements as determined by their feeding trials to maintain quality health. It is like the food groups humans are supposed to use as a guideline for their health. The next question is, how does one define "regular" requirements? Your dogs' "regular" requirements might be quite different than my dogs' just because of the activities we each have our dogs involved in. Even among my own dogs and fosters there is a variation in their "regular" requirements. A couch potato corgi is not going to have the same "regular" requirements as a corgi that is out doing agility or herding or even conformation.

wouldnt higher amount of requirments be better for a puppy than minimum requirments?

NO and depending upon what one is overdoing might actually cause more damage than minimum requirements. Feeding high protein concentrations can lead to Pano. Another example, adding calcium supplements can predispose your puppy to bone and joint abnormalities. (The source of that last statement is a RVT, Pembroke breeder, owner and competitor in a variety of events.)

Debbie

[MyPemCharlie]

Originally Posted by glencorgi

NO and depending upon what one is overdoing might actually cause more damage than minimum requirements. Feeding high protein concentrations can lead to Pano. Another example, adding calcium supplements can predispose your puppy to bone and joint abnormalities. (The source of that last statement is a RVT, Pembroke breeder, owner and competitor in a variety of events.)

Debbie

That was also one of my last points, and there are a variety of independent sources and scientific studies discussing the link between "too much" nutrition and bone problems, in addition to Debbie's source.

I switched Charlie around 7 months, not because the bag said "All Life Stages", but because he should be about 75%-80% grown and I wanted to lower his protein level a couple percent and lower the calcium to slow the balance of his growth during the time his growth plates are finishing up and closing. My decision was solely based on my own hours of research and what I thought was best for my dog.

We all have different reasons for choosing what to feed, so we're never going to all agree. Heck even the people who study dog food 8 hours a day can't agree with each other.

I think you changed from The Good Life puppy food (28% protein, 12% fat, 1.1% calcium) to Nature's Recipe Lamb puppy food (25% protein, 15% fat, no measurable calcium). You've essentially done the same thing I did...lowered the protein and calcium...even though your bag says "Puppy" and my bag says "All Life Stages". The point is not the pretty outside label...it's what is actually in the bag and the little nutrional and ingredient labels in fine print on the back or side of the bag.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Corgi_Lover

adults, puppies, and seniors need different amount of protiens, carbs, calories, and so on right? how can all that combine in a bag?

The same way Total Cereal puts all the daily vitamin requirements in one bowl of ceareal.

You put all the ingredients in a huge vat, you mix it up, you put it through the extruder (that makes the shape of the kibble) and then you bake it.

Vitamins and minerals are added as powdered or liquid ingredients in certain amounts depending on the food.

Just like a cake mix. Flour, sugar, salt, vanilla, eggs, are in there and get all mixed up.

Minimum requirments...isnt it better to feed regular requirments? wouldnt higher amount of requirments be better for a puppy than minimum requirments?

All food, dog food, people food, cat food, human baby food are forumlated for the minimum daily requirements needed for whoever it's being made for.

For an all life stages food to be suitable for all life stages it has to be good for the one needing the most nutrition, which would be a growing puppy. So it's forumulated for the minimum daily requirements needed for a growing puppy.

So you are feeding the "regular" requirements. In fact most foods exceed the minimum. But they have to at least have the minimum daily requirements.

Peggy

[Michael Romanos]

Dr Cave is New Zealand's only internationally qualified canine nutritionist. He is employed at Massey University which is an internationally recognised headquarters for animal research and development- especially farm animals and dogs. Dr Cave lectures worldwide on his major subject (small animal nutrition) as well as forming part of the tutoring team at the University's veterinary school. He is completely independent otherwise the university would not engage his services.

The two companies whom I engaged in conversations were Hills Science Australia and Nestle's Purina (re ProPlan) New Zealand. Both came to the same conclusions - but so would a dozen others who also produce all-stages and separate puppy, adult and senior diets.

It can't be over emphasised just how important feeding puppies is. New Zealander Lesley Chalmers who has often been to the USA and Canada as a Corgi etc conformation judge and has exported dozens of her Corgis overseas, says that a lot of Corgis in the USA are not as sound and with good bone as they should be, because they are not fed properly through their puppyhood ie not gone the full distance with (super premium) food especially designated for puppies at least up to the age of one year.

[Corgis4me]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

The two companies whom I engaged in conversations were Hills Science Australia and Nestle's Purina (re ProPlan) New Zealand. Both came to the same conclusions - but so would a dozen others who also produce all-stages and separate puppy, adult and senior diets.

What "dozen others" are you speaking of that agree we should feed only puppy food? There are not many companies that produce all-life stages pet food along with separate puppy, adult and senior foods.
I found two and their sites said that either the puppy food or all life stages can be fed to puppies.

[Michael Romanos]

A dozen others is a guess that there is a dozen others world-wide and not necessarily available to everyone in the USA.
Dog food producer can easily tell you the differences between their puppy food and their adult and senior foods whether or not they have tagged them as suitable for all-life stages. And there are pretty conclusive differences that for a normal healthy Corgi, the puppy formula is quite superior to that of all-life stages.

[LaRogue]

i mean they have puppy food, adult food, and senior food for a reason. how on earth are they able to get all those different types of food into one bag????

I think it's not so much different "types" of food, it's all more or less the same food. I think (I need to keep concepts simple for myself ) of it this way: Puppy food is suped up (with extra stuff added) and senior food is toned down (with some things subtracted). It's basically all the same food. Puppies eat more food and are fed more often than dogs. More food = more nutrients. As the puppy grows and devolpment slows down, you feed less, because not as many nutrients are needed.

For me, what dog food to feed is very confusing. My vet and his staff say there is no reason to feed your dog a senior food (I don't know his opinion on puppy, because the topic's not come up), unless there is a medical condition to do so, and he (along with all the staff) tell clients that dog food companies are in the business to sell dog food, that the dog food companies want you to buy as much food as they can get you to buy, not go by the feeding charts, and to watch out for gimmicks, etc. They also tell everyone to switch their dog/cat to adult food once it is altered, if it's not already on adult food. Like I said, it's all very confusing. Personally, I probably wouldn't have a problem with an appropriate breeder recommended puppy food up to 6 monthss, if the breeder recommended it, although I'd probably ask for his/her opinion about an all life stage food. I also would be willing to use an all life stage food for a puppy, if the breeder recomended it. Knowing what I know now, if I had to pick myself without breeder involvement , I would most likely choose the all life stage food. Like I said, I find it all very confusing most of the time and I HATE trying to find dog a new food!

The two companies whom I engaged in conversations were Hills Science Australia and Nestle's Purina (re ProPlan) New Zealand.

I wonder if it's possible your New Zeland Science diet and our American version are of different qualities/ingredients? Science diet (not including prescription formulas) are not very good here in the US. I used the regular formula, once many years ago at the insistance of a vet. My senior corgi only would eat it grudgingly and his coat rapidly became brittle and dull. I didn't even finish a third of the bag and I put him back on his old food.

[Michael Romanos]

I cannot imagine for one moment that a major company like Hill's would stoop or need to stoop, to producing different formulas for different countries for their standard products that have been honed to an excellent standard over a lengthy period of time having engaged a large team of nutrition and vet expertise.
Feeding a dog with 38 -42 special and certain vitamins, minerals and nutrients daily and using the correct quantities for a balanced diet, is well beyoinf me and I would wager, most of the world's dog owners. So to be able to buy the food ready prepared is modern science at its best.

[Cheetah]

Both my dogs are fed an All Life Stages food, and both of them are in perfect health. That's evidence enough for me that, although it may not work for every dog, because their bodies are all different like ours, it certainly works for many! Mine are at least living proof that, despite some peoples' beliefs, a dog isn't going to drop dead when fed ALS food. >9.9<

[glencorgi]

LaRogue, sounds like you've got a vet on top of things!

Debbie

[MyPemCharlie]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

I cannot imagine for one moment that a major company like Hill's would stoop or need to stoop, to producing different formulas for different countries for their standard products that have been honed to an excellent standard over a lengthy period of time having engaged a large team of nutrition and vet expertise.

No, there would not be a better quality of formula for countries outside the US. It's not a matter of "stooping", it's a matter of no need to add the cost required to make a better-quality dog food, when their cheap ingredients combined with their almost genius marketing strategy and distribution channels are working so well (and profitably) for them.

Hill's is the Pet Nutrition Division owned by Colgate-Palmolive conglomerate and is one of the most profitable divisions. Investing a lot of money in veterinarians and "nutrition experts", instead of quality ingredients, allows them to charge premium prices for passable-quality food. Their paid "experts" have pretty much cornered the veterinarian industry. It's brilliant!

JMHO

[Corgis4me]

Originally Posted by MyPemCharlie

No, there would not be a better quality of formula for countries outside the US. It's not a matter of "stooping", it's a matter of no need to add the cost required to make a better-quality dog food, when their cheap ingredients combined with their almost genius marketing strategy and distribution channels are working so well (and profitably) for them.

Hill's is the Pet Nutrition Division owned by Colgate-Palmolive conglomerate and is one of the most profitable divisions. Investing a lot of money in veterinarians and "nutrition experts", instead of quality ingredients, allows them to charge premium prices for passable-quality food. Their paid "experts" have pretty much cornered the veterinarian industry. It's brilliant!

JMHO

I couldn't have said it better

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by LaRogue

For me, what dog food to feed is very confusing. My vet and his staff say there is no reason to feed your dog a senior food (I don't know his opinion on puppy, because the topic's not come up), unless there is a medical condition to do so, and he (along with all the staff) tell clients that dog food companies are in the business to sell dog food, that the dog food companies want you to buy as much food as they can get you to buy, not go by the feeding charts, and to watch out for gimmicks, etc. They also tell everyone to switch their dog/cat to adult food once it is altered, if it's not already on adult food. Like I said, it's all very confusing. Personally, I probably wouldn't have a problem with an appropriate breeder recommended puppy food up to 6 monthss, if the breeder recommended it, although I'd probably ask for his/her opinion about an all life stage food. I also would be willing to use an all life stage food for a puppy, if the breeder recomended it. Knowing what I know now, if I had to pick myself without breeder involvement , I would most likely choose the all life stage food. Like I said, I find it all very confusing most of the time and I HATE trying to find dog a new food!

Good for your vet and his staff! Sounds like he's one who's done some further research on his own and made his own decisions.

Peggy