Which one would you chose?

[LaRogue]

I cannot imagine for one moment that a major company like Hill's would stoop or need to stoop, to producing different formulas for different countries for their standard products that have been honed to an excellent standard over a lengthy period of time having engaged a large team of nutrition and vet expertise.

I didn't mean they were purposely creating different formulas to market to different countries. What I was trying to ask or suggest was that perhaps Hills Science Australia produced the food marketed in NZ. Since different countries have different quality standards, regulations, and may substitue local ingredients for food and it's processing (not all US dog foods can be imported to the EU), perhaps it carried over to the dog food, IF the dog food was made in Australia.

The two companies whom I engaged in conversations were Hills Science Australia and Nestle's Purina (re ProPlan) New Zealand. Both came to the same conclusions - but so would a dozen others who also produce all-stages and separate puppy, adult and senior diets.

Why would you ask companies who produce the product (any product) you are inquiring about to give you information about why their product is best? If you're going to do that, wouldn't if be fair and helpful towards being unbiased to contact the same number of All Life Stage food companies to ask their views/research? I, personally don't ask companies to rate their own products that I'm considering purchasing. I try to find legitimate, unbiased third party information to base my decisions upon. JMO.

LaRogue, sounds like you've got a vet on top of things!
Good for your vet and his staff! Sounds like he's one who's done some further research on his own and made his own decisions

Debbie & Peggy, My vet is wonderful! I love everyone there. He's in my hometown, a drive, and kind of pricey, but definitely worth it!

[Michael Romanos]

LaRouge - what a load of nonsense. Ring up every company who produces so-called all-life stages dog food which are AAFCO-approved and who also produce separate puppy, adult and senior food and get their opinion on what is best among their products for puppies and seniors - just for your benefit. what do you think I am. Don't answer that one. Suffice to say, it would prove nothing. I contacted two of them and no doubt in my mind the results would have been the same with any others. As well I spoke to an independent internationally recognised canine nutritionist and he came to the same conclusion as the two producers. Ring away yourself.
Don't forget these companies are not specifically rating their own products - they are saying what they would recommend for puppies and seniors against other products they also distribute to the market.

[Corgis4me]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

LaRouge - what a load of nonsense. Ring up every company who produces so-called all-life stages dog food which are AAFCO-approved and who also produce separate puppy, adult and senior food and get their opinion on what is best among their products for puppies and seniors - just for your benefit. what do you think I am. Don't answer that one. Suffice to say, it would prove nothing. I contacted two of them and no doubt in my mind the results would have been the same with any others. As well I spoke to an independent internationally recognised canine nutritionist and he came to the same conclusion as the two producers. Ring away yourself.
Don't forget these companies are not specifically rating their own products - they are saying what they would recommend for puppies and seniors against other products they also distribute to the market.

Like I had mentioned, I found two that Produced All Life Stages as well as puppy, adult and senior foods, so at least here, in the US, I don't think LaRouge would have to do much calling around and in fact on one of the company's sites, in their F&Q section on what to feed puppies, it stated either their puppy formula OR their All life stages formula; they made no mention that one was better than the other -

[Chip's Mom]

Michael - If you have the time, would you list all the ingredients in Science Diet and also the ingredients in Canidae or another comparable dog food that is all life stages as an example side by side. Also, if you could ask your Dr. the purpose and nutritional value of some of the ingredients that are added in the Science Diet, that would be greatly appreciated.

[LaRogue]

I believe your being over dramatic.

Ring up every company who produces so-called all-life stages dog food which are AAFCO-approved and who also produce separate puppy, adult and senior food and get their opinion on what is best among their products for puppies and seniors - just for your benefit. what do you think I am

How, exactly did this turn into for MY benefit? I don't have a puppy or a senior dog. The senior corgi I was posting about passed away in 2005. The only pet I have is Pip who is almost 3, so, again, exactly how is it you figure this discussion is of benefit to ME?

Dr Cave is New Zealand's only internationally qualified canine nutritionist. He is employed at Massey University which is an internationally recognised headquarters for animal research and development- especially farm animals and dogs. Dr Cave lectures worldwide on his major subject (small animal nutrition) as well as forming part of the tutoring team at the University's veterinary school. He is completely independent otherwise the university would not engage his services.

The two companies whom I engaged in conversations were Hills Science Australia and Nestle's Purina (re ProPlan) New Zealand. Both came to the same conclusions - but so would a dozen others who also produce all-stages and separate puppy, adult and senior diets.

You're giving the impression you have researched this issue. To be fair, and unbiasised one needs to get the information offered by both sides (BTW could you point out to me where I said you should call every all life stage food company), not just one that's going to give the answer the resercher may want to hear.

As to the commercialism aspect of it, I found 21 choices of Hills Science Diet adult dry foods listed on their website. To be fair, alot of them were small bites, large bites, toy bites, regualr bites, etc.,for the same formulas, but you can't convince me that there aren't marketing gimmicks going on when a company has 21 choices of adult dry foods!

Like I had mentioned, I found two that Produced All Life Stages as well as puppy, adult and senior foods, so at least here, in the US, I don't think LaRouge would have to do much calling around and in fact on one of the company's sites, in their F&Q section on what to feed puppies, it stated either their puppy formula OR their All life stages formula; they made no mention that one was better than the other -

I've seen the ALL Life Stages on alot of bags, too.

[Corgis4me]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

Dr Cave lectures worldwide on his major subject (small animal nutrition) as well as forming part of the tutoring team at the University's veterinary school. He is completely independent otherwise the university would not engage his services..

Science Hill produced a product based on his research.

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

The two companies whom I engaged in conversations were Hills Science Australia and Nestle's Purina (re ProPlan) New Zealand. Both came to the same conclusions - but so would a dozen others who also produce all-stages and separate puppy, adult and senior diets...

You consulted with two companies that only make puppy, adult and senior dog food; they don't make all life stages; at least I could not find an All Life Stages on their sites. Naturally they are going to say All Life stages is not sufficient.

Science Hill has an Advanced Protection Senior food for ages 7+. Supposed to keep your dog feeling young and healthy. Has a unique antioxidant blend, sourced from ingredients like citrus fruits, carrots, spinach and tomatoes, that helps maintain a healthy immune system.

Why would I want to wait until my dog is a senior to give him these antioxidants? Why don't more of their foods they produce include this stuff? I can find these antioxidants already in a good quality "All Life Stages food" and feed it to him now, while he is young to help in keeping him healthy all the way through his senior years.

[Michael Romanos]

Pray tell me, what is both sides of the equation when the companies that produce all-life stages dog food and also separate puppy, adult and senior food and whose products are AAFCO-approved, are able to freely give their opinions on what is best for puppies and seniors through direct contact ie one on one conversations with their nutrition specialist staff.

I have never stated that I think Hills or any others are the best food producers for dogs. That is the opinion of other people specialists or more specialist in the field. These people have also stated the AAFCO tested and passed dog food which signifies that the food is complete and balanced at least to minimum standards (and max where applicable, eg calcuim), are the most likely food to be the best option for dogs. I would personally concur with these people regarding AAFCO-approved food.

Taylor has basically been provided four different manufacturers food on a regular daily basis in his five years - Nutrience, Virbac, Hills Science and ProPlan. All AAFCO-approved. The only differences I can tell between Hills adult - which Taylor had for more than a year up til last September - and what he is currently getting, ProPlan ( adult and performance adult), is that his stools are now a little more solid and he needs a quarter cup more ProPlan per meal than that of Hills so as to equate to as full a meal.

[Corgis4me]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

I have never stated that I think Hills or any others are the best food producers for dogs. That is the opinion of other people specialists or more specialist in the field. These people have also stated the AAFCO tested and passed dog food which signifies that the food is complete and balanced at least to minimum standards (and max where applicable, eg calcuim), are the most likely food to be the best option for dogs. I would personally concur with these people regarding AAFCO-approved food.

Never said that you made that claim, however, you are using the advice of those who work for Science Hill and someone who had some connection to them at one point(Dr. Cave), to tell the rest of us that an All Life Stages dog food is not appropriate to feed puppies; as if their opinion can only be the right one. Science Hill does not make an All Life stages dog food along with their puppy, adult and senior; neither does Purina Pro Plan, so they are going to tell you that All Life Stages is not optimum for puppies.


It's interesting that Science Hill now has a "Natures Best food line" where they are adding fruits and veggies, and there is no longer by-products or Corn Gluten in these forumlas ; something that is in practically every one of their other orgininal formulas. I guess they must have listened to the public and probably through drops in sales, realized that consumers will spend their money elsewhere on dog food that is healthier; so they are now trying to compete with that.

[MyPemCharlie]

Originally Posted by Corgis4me

It's interesting that Science Hill now has a "Natures Best food line" where they are adding fruits and veggies, and there is no longer by-products or Corn Gluten in these forumlas ; something that is in practically every one of their other orgininal formulas. I guess they must have listened to the public and probably through drops in sales, realized that consumers will spend their money elsewhere on dog food that is healthier; so they are now trying to compete with that.

It is nice to see Hill's face some pressure for a better food, though their sales did increase 11% last year to $1.85 Billion. The Nature's Best is still very grainy, but a step in the right direction. At $8.50 for 3.5 pounds, that's a lot to pay for mostly grains.

The thing that irks me most about Hill's is their price to value. Charlie's breeder was feeding Hill's Science Diet Puppy because that's "what the vet has always recommended for her dogs". I cringed as I bought one small bag (5lbs) for $9. Right down the aisle were at least a dozen much better foods for the same $2 bucks a pound. We switched at the end of the first bag to a better quality food, same price.

[LaRogue]

I couldn't edit out the parts of my last post that were drifting off, so I deleted it and am re-posting.

Pray tell me, what is both sides of the equation when the companies that produce all-life stages dog food and also separate puppy, adult and senior food and whose products are AAFCO-approved, are able to freely give their opinions on what is best for puppies and seniors through direct contact ie one on one conversations with their nutrition specialist staff.

Okay, I think I see what you're saying now. I believe I created confussion by not explaining myself well. Corgis4me explained it much better. There are some companies that produce only all life stage foods, they do not make puppy & senior foods. Canidae is one of them. These are the companies I was suggesting you contact to hear their side. Since they all have websites, you can look at their site or shoot them an email to ask them why THEY feel different formulas for puppies and seniors aren't needed.

Dog food companies have also been coming out with large breed puppy food. Why? It's been realized that regular puppy food was making large breeds develop improperly. Now they are coming out with toy puppy food. Again why?

Alot of breeders here are looking to getting back to nature as the best way to have happy healthy dogs. As was previouls posted many times, dogs, wolves, coyotes, people whatever you want to pick...don't have a seperate food, to fed their babies and elderly, without going to a store to get it from.

Maybe in New Zeland there is not as big a selection of dog food to choose from. Here there are grain free foods, most which specifically state they are NOT appropriate to feed to puppies. There are natural foods, made with meats that are hormone, genetically modified, and antibiotic free protein sources, there are pet food comapnies owned by human food manufactoring companies that make dog food from what's left after making the human food, and there are 100% meat dog foods (canned) which state directly on the can that they are for supplemental feeding only. We have a mind boggling selction of dog foods and everyone of them claims to be the best and wants you to buy theirs. Not all of the companies that produce dog foods have the best interests of the dog in mind. They are marketing to the people who buy the food. It is up to us, as owners to try to try to find what is best. I believe that means making the best informed decision you can and THAT means finding ALL of the available information you (the owner-not you Michael) can, not just the info that supports what you (again, the owner) might want to hear.

The only dog foods I know of that don't meet AAFCO requirements are those that are for supplemental feeding, ie 100% or 95% meat canned foods. I would have to check on the dehydrated/frozen raw foods, as I don't know much about them. I did not know the AAFCO approved food. I thought they set the nutritional requirements and definitions that can be used. I will have to check into that.

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by LaRogue

I did not know the AAFCO approved food.

They don't. And that is even per officials with AAFCO. If you search the diet nutrition threads here using AAFCO, you'll probably come across more than one posting of correspondence with said AAFCO official stating this.

I thought they set the nutritional requirements and definitions that can be used. I will have to check into that.

That IS what they do, just some people can't be broken of the idea that the AAFCO statement on a bag of dog food isn't the same thing as the "Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval."

Debbie

[LaRogue]

Thank you for the info, Debbie. I visited the AAFCO website and also the FDA's. this is what I was able to find:

From FDA:

Every product must meet at least one of these two profiles. A product intended for growing kittens and puppies, or for pregnant or lactating females, must meet AAFCO's nutrient profile for growth/lactation. Products that meet AAFCO's profile for maintenance are suitable for an adult, non-reproducing dog or cat of normal activity level, but may not be adequate for an immature, reproducing, or hard-working animal. A product may claim that it is for "all life stages" if it is suitable for adult maintenance and also meets the more stringent nutritional needs for growth and reproduction.

The site had more interesting info. I am going to try to include the link.
Apparently not. I'm editing to add it.
Pet Food: The Lowdown on Labels

[Corgis4me]

Originally Posted by MyPemCharlie

The Nature's Best is still very grainy, but a step in the right direction. At $8.50 for 4.5 pounds, that's a lot to pay for mostly grains.

They have to somehow pay all their experts that say all these grains are good

.

[MyPemCharlie]

Originally Posted by Corgis4me

They have to somehow pay all their experts that say all these grains are good

.

Oops! Typo...that's $8.50 for 3.5 pounds, (not 4.5). The experts said, "Let's charge even more and just put less weight in the bag". LOL

[Corgis4me]

Originally Posted by MyPemCharlie

It is nice to see Hill's face some pressure for a better food, though their sales did increase 11% last year to $1.85 Billion.

I have to say this surprises me a bit, but it would be interesting to know what countries generated the most income for them with sales; "possibly" in countries where they don't have the wide selection of other healthy choices that we have in the US?