Docked or Undocked?

[CorgiMum]

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[darci]

I have seen only very few undocked corgi's and they have mostly been mixed breeds.
Is it Europe that has banned docking ? I think I read that some where but not 100% sure.

[corgimom]

Barbara,

with that tail curled up on the bottom dog, it sure just changes the whole
appearance. Makes me think of a Pomeranian.

Linda

[CorgiMum]

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[corgimom]

Yes, Elkhound look also - didn't think of that one.

Linda

[KatC]

WooHoo - Here comes Abby again. There is a good thread here re this subject - Search Forums for Tail Docking.

However I shall post same pics here again, also some later ones. (BTW you will notice what the drought has done to Abby's back yard).

[CorgiMum]

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[KatC]

CorgiMum - I have never seen any reference to balance and the tail. Yes, it was mandatory that Abby's tail not be docked. Here are some interesting facts re Australia's stance on tail docking. I have not included any of the discussions re opinions on pain experienced or methods employed.

April 1st, 2004, sees the docking of dogs' tails made illegal across Australia except for medical purposes, and you can be fined $10.000 if you choose to break the law, and $40.000 if you're working as part of an organisation.

There are over 70 breeds of dog that traditionally have their tails cut off a few days after birth. Many people think that dogs of docked breeds, which include Dobermanns, Rottweilers, most terriers, spaniels, pointers and other gun dogs, are born with short tails - this is not true! The reason some breeds and not others are docked is simply because of the fashion set for that particular breed. The only dog with a naturally short tail is the Stumpy-tailed Cattledog.

Each breed has an arbitrary standard for where the tail should be cut off. These absurd rules include 'just above the hair markings on underside of tail' for the Australian Silky Terrier, or 'complete tail removal' for the Schepperke, or, for the Cocker Spaniel, where the tail is cut to be 'never too short nor too long as to interfere with merry action when working'!

There are many working breeds with long tails such as cattle dogs, German shepherds, collies and kelpies. These show that routine tail docking is not necessary to prevent injury.

Veterinary surgeon Peter Holm told ABC Drive Presenter Elaine Harris that the practice began in Germany in the 1400's, when a tax was levied on each working dog with a tail. A most unusual form of tax evasion.

[CorgiMum]

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[Michael Romanos]

At present there are very few countries where docking is either banned or partially banned. When in producing a submission to the NZ Government on the subject 12 to 18 months ago, I had discovered that only six countries in the world had a total ban and three others a partial ban on docking of dog's tails. Since then this number may have increased only marginally or a ban also now exists in some areas (states/provinces/regions) of one or two countries.

Of all the Pems I have seen with whole tails, the lower pic shown in the first post of this thread has not been the kind of tail I've seen ie the tail with a definite upward curve and very spitz-like. They have all been similar to a Cardigan Corgi tail but a little shorter, not so well feathered and not quite as German Shepherd-like. The spitz-type tail is what I think most pem breeders and fanciers would not want and is a major reason why the continuation of docking of Pems is so widely sought.

But I also realise that a Pem Corgi's tail can become 'proud' when the Corgi is aroused in some way - excited for instance.

Part of my submission against banning docking of Pem Corgis dealt with the fact that some Pems are naturally tail-less and it would be confusing for judging purposes at conformation shows to have a lineup of Pems with and without tails.

I am delighted to have my Taylor without a tail. But as I have alluded to previously on this site, shortly after Corgis were first displayed in the show ring in Britain, it was decided by the breeders that Pems should be separated from Cardis for showing and that the Pems should (and continue to) have their tails docked to ensure that they were recognised as a separate breed from Cardis. This situation has long been resolved and it is probably no longer necessary to maintain it as a point of difference.

[darci]

I love Abby's white tip on her tail, she's such a doll.

[corgimom]

She is so very cute.

Linda

[glencorgi]

I have seen quite a few, mostly via rescue, but also some well bred Finnish imports brought in to add to a breeding program. The Scandinavian countries all have docking bans, South Africa is a new one to the list. Attempts were recently made in California to ban cropping and docking, which was defeated; New York state is now has proposed anti-docking and cropping legislation. None of the places I know of where the bans are in place by law allow any exemptions for working dogs.

My thoughts - I want the #@%* animal rights activists to keep their #@%^ noses and hands out of my breed(s) and my whelping box - thank you very much. That Linda and Barbara made comments about the tailed Pems looking like other breeds just says that the tailed Pembrokes are lacking in breed type. Breed type is, for example, when one is looking across a field at dog in silhouette and one can immediately identify what breed it is - no question. Breed type is what makes a breed and without type one does not have a breed. With that in mind, the 1993 words of Wayne Pacelle who now heads the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) might have some meaning. "We have no ethical obligation to preserve the different breeds of livestock produced through selective breeding. … One generation and out. We have no problem with the extinction of domestic animals. They are creations of human selective breeding." His words might also give more reason to take a double look at the mandatory spay/neuter laws (MSN) being proposed across the US calling for all animals over 4 to 6 months old to be sterilized. "... one generation and out." But I digress from the tale of the tails.

In regards to Barbara's question about balance, I've heard that one. My response to it, based on information from reputable scientific and practical sources is the same as my response to the comments that docked breeds can't express their "emotions, feelings," etc. not having a tail; bollucks.

I disagree with some of the reasoning KatC shared when the ARista's won their battle to prohibit docking in Australia.

The reason some breeds and not others are docked is simply because of the fashion set for that particular breed. The only dog with a naturally short tail is the Stumpy-tailed Cattledog.

I don't think "fashion statement" is really accurate as to why some breeds were docked and others weren't. Nor would it be accurate to say the "only" dog with a naturally short tail is the Stumpy-tailed Cattledog. Natural bobs occur in many breeds including the Pembroke. In deference to Michael's explanation of why the Pems came to be docked; I think that it is more likely the fact the original Pembrokes did have natural bobbed tails (breed type) was recognised and the decision to dock was to preserve this aspect of type.

KatC also comments:

Each breed has an arbitrary standard for where the tail should be cut off. These absurd rules include 'just above the hair markings on underside of tail' for the Australian Silky Terrier, or 'complete tail removal' for the Schepperke, or, for the Cocker Spaniel, where the tail is cut to be 'never too short nor too long as to interfere with merry action when working'!

You say arbitrary and absurd, I say there is a foundation in form follows function - nothing arbitrary or absurd about it. Put the Cocker Spaniel in the field working in natural terrain of its ancestry and the reason for the tail to be 'never too short nor too long as to interfere with merry action when working' might become clearer.

There are many working breeds with long tails such as cattle dogs, German shepherds, collies and kelpies. These show that routine tail docking is not necessary to prevent injury.

Not necessarily and no they do not as a blanket statement. What is the natural environment the tailed breeds are working in? Not the same as the brush and bramble some of the Sporting (Field/Hunting) breeds which are going into after game. I suggest looking at the Council of Docked Breeds website for tail injuries sustained on some of these breeds when doing what they were naturally born to do. <http://www.cdb.org> Sometimes a historical perspective is helpful to understand the whys of some of today. Old English Sheepdogs are a breed traditionally docked, sanitation and health being among the reasons. OES are drovers and helped drive stock to market over long distances. Fecal matter caught in their tails and coats could draw flies which can cause disease. Additionally encrusted fecal matter can lead to sores, infection, illness and the drover loses his dog/working partner and his livelihood is impacted. I seriously doubt that the drovers sat around the campfire at night and groomed their dogs.

Veterinary surgeon Peter Holm told ABC Drive Presenter Elaine Harris that the practice began in Germany in the 1400's, when a tax was levied on each working dog with a tail. A most unusual form of tax evasion.

All I can say is Dr. Holm didn't research too far back in history. The Romans were the first to classify dogs according to the purpose they were used for. The laws of Hywel in the 10th Century also classify dogs for tax purposes. HOWEVER, that he is using German sources is a bit enlightening as to the influences working in Australia given the state of breeding restrictions and dogs in general in Germany.

The lower picture in the original post in this thread would be correct for a Pembroke tail set and carriage. Pembrokes are of Spitz origins and tail sets are high and carried over the back, not always with as much "curl" as the second picture shows. KatC's Abby's tail set looks to be a little low. To be like a Cardigan's tail would mean there is incorrect rear assembly and structure in that particular Pembroke. Those who have been working with tailed Pems and natural bobs for a number of years since the bans have hit in the Scandinavian countries can tell the difference (they say) between the natural bobs and docked Pembrokes. Some even in the US say they can tell the difference; I seem to be getting a fair feel for it myself. (I recently had a very short natural bobbed young boy, sadly a very poor tempered one, but very interesting none the less.) An all-breed judge or all-rounder might not be able to tell the difference, but some breed specialists would.

Debbie, who doesn't want to see the day when there are no more bunny butts to drive us nuts.

[Chip's Mom]

The pictures of the corgi with the tail remind me so much of Digger. That is how is tail was and it was beautiful and his build was like that also. I miss him so very much.

[Michael Romanos]

I must correct Debbie this time for things she THINKS I said that have occurred so often in the past: I never said that Pems started having their tails docked by leading British breeders after they were first exhibited in the show ring but I implied that they opted for uniformity and for continuation of docking as a distinguishing factor from Cardis.