Breeding Corgis

Chip's Mom · 06-29-2006, 07:26 PM

I am looking for good websites regarding the hazards of breeding Pems. If anyone has literature, websites, etc. please let me know. I work with a girl who's ex husband went to NC and bought 2 pems. A male and a female, less than a year ago. He brought them home, installed a wireless fence and that is where they lived. They got lost 3 times but were always returned compliments of a microchip. The female was a small corgi. When this girl told me about the breeding plans, I explained to her the risks associated with breeding corgis and she said her ex wouldn't listen if she told him. Anyway, periodically I would ask about this pup. When I asked the other day, she told me she had died. Her ex wouldn't say how but the girl told me that she was big with puppies and he said she was fine at 8:00 am and when he checked her at 10 pm she had died. He plans on getting another female to breed. This girl wants to educate her daughter in hopes that this will help the next pup. Strange but I had gotten attached to this pup and I had only seen her picture. I have often thought about her and wish she could have came to live at my house. Sorry for the long post.

corgimom · 06-29-2006, 07:43 PM

That is just a sad story, and the dogs lived outside because he installed a
wireless fence??

linda

Cardiguy · 06-30-2006, 08:59 AM

Some people don't deserve the priviledge of owning pets.

glencorgi · 06-30-2006, 10:04 AM

Bonnie,

I don't know of any sites specific to corgis. You are welcome to pass along the post I did to this site about breeding.

Here are a couple of others, not Pembroke specific, but actual breeders' accounts:
<http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/breeding/breeder3.html>
Another one, along the lines of what I did to GoCorgi:
<http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/breeding/breeder2.html>
<http://www.global.net.au/~aegis/whybreed.htm>

Reality is (at least here in the US) Pembrokes are not the easiest of breeds to whelp. Wednesday my sister (who is an active in breeding of Cardigans, Saint Bernards and Pugs and has assisted and whelped Pembroke litters as well as other breeds) and I spent 6 hours on the road (went to WV - T-gal's "neighborhood <g>) to go look at a couple of Cardigan puppies a breeder needed an opinion on and hand off a couple of girls in season to be bred to this breeder's stud dogs. We talked dogs all the way, during lunch and all the way home. Of all the breeds she's worked with over the last 15 or so years, my sister's comment was the breed she least liked to whelp was Pembrokes. They are the most stressful to her.

One thing this guy CANNOT do is assume nature will take its course and he'll end up with puppies. Nature did take its course and he ended up with a dead dog and dead puppies. Pems require hands on assistance, they don't just crawl under the porch and deliver. There is a high incidence of c-sections required in Pembrokes. Puppies are often slow to come around and get started and need help with that. They also need constant supervision for at least the first 48 hours.

How old is the daughter, because it sounds like she may be the one that is going to have to take action. IF he is going to do this again and the daughter is to be of help - she's going to have to tell him that by day 57 from the breeding he needs to bring this new female into the house. He needs to set up a whelping area - a small child's wading pool will work just fine. She needs to do some reading on whelping puppies so he will have the necessary supplies on hand for her and he needs to talk to a vet for some advice as well.

Does he by chance have horses too? If so, he needs to talk to some of horsey friends who do the Pems as accessories to the barn and horses about their whelping experiences and get advice.

I feel like I'm sort of blathering all over the place, but this is upsetting news on so many levels and a good example of why I don't play cheerleader for just any and everyone who pops up about corgis they're thinking about breeding. Given the location, IF this guy ever does have a litter of puppies, I about know where the ones who don't work out in their new homes are going to end up. <sigh>

Any of this you'd like to pass along to your friend, you have my permission to do so and anything I might be able to do to help the daughter, I'll be glad to try.

Debbie

Chip's Mom · 06-30-2006, 10:36 AM

Thanks Debbie. I have been waiting for your post. I am going to cut, paste, and edit this and send along to her. I think the daughter is maybe 14. He has had horses in the past but not so sure now. It is upsetting. I was very depressed about it. I had thought many times, if she had gotten loose and I found her, I would have just kept her. That may not be the right thing to have done, but she would have still been alive. I will keep you posted.

Michael Romanos · 06-30-2006, 11:02 PM

It's incredible and sad that Corgis are such a problem for breeding purposes in the USA and no where else.

glencorgi · 07-01-2006, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

It's incredible and sad that Corgis are such a problem for breeding purposes in the USA and no where else.

I wouldn't say that as one of the most heartwrenching stories of someone losing their b*tch and all puppies occurred to someone in Norway and this was with their Pembroke under veterinary care when it happened.

Debbie

Michael Romanos · 07-01-2006, 11:46 PM

Just as with humans, dog birthing has its hiccups where things can go horribly wrong even with the best care. But I do believe there is either something about the USA which is prohibitive for Corgis procreating or Debbie is promoting some kind of hysteria in a bid to drop the Corgi population and popularity in her country.

glencorgi · 07-02-2006, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

Just as with humans, dog birthing has its hiccups where things can go horribly wrong even with the best care. But I do believe there is either something about the USA which is prohibitive for Corgis procreating or Debbie is promoting some kind of hysteria in a bid to drop the Corgi population and popularity in her country.

Well, perhaps all the breeders on all the discussion lists I am on (which are international in membership) and all the breeders that I spend time with at breed functions, plus all the information that comes via the rescue network is all just a bunch of misinformation?

I suppose you will be just chuffed to the bits when this "gentleman"

Chip's Mom spoke about, gets his next female and perhaps she will be able to just pop the puppies out under the porch step?

As far as popularity, Pembrokes were the # 23 most popular breed in 2004 and 2005 according to AKC registration numbers with about 11,000 +/-registered in both years. In 2003 they were #24. Cardigans went from #81 in 2003 to #85 in 2004 and to #79 in 2005. I can only speculate that you'd rather see them up at the numbers of Labrador Retrievers with nearly 138,000 registered in 2005.

Debbie

corgimom · 07-02-2006, 05:44 AM

Deb,

I love Corgis and I would hate to see them up there with the Black labs in regards to the number of them that would be registered. Every day when I check out the Classifieds, it is just ads and ads of labs for sale - how sad, what type of breeding is going on?

Michael,

I don't think Deb is creating some hysteria promoting to drop the Corgi population here - she deals with Rescue on an ongoing basis and knows what comes of bad breeding.

Linda

Chip's Mom · 07-02-2006, 08:58 PM

Michael:

I didn't post this to start a discussion on breeding corgis. I posted this to help an unknown puppy before she ends up like the first one did. If I can provide them with enough information regarding the hazards of birthing puppies maybe they will decide not to try again or learn how to do it the proper way. Also, these people use an invisible fence to keep their corgis in their yard which gives free access to any male dog in the neighborhood. These dogs are not allowed in the house. The male corgi is also in this yard putting him at risk trying to protect his mate.

Michael Romanos · 07-02-2006, 10:06 PM

One can try and rid a country of horrid breeders and very poor breeding methods - and indeed, expose such villains - but this should not stop attempts to glorify and thereby promote, publicise and (further) popularise Corgis world-wide. And this is what I believe Go Corgi is all about.

Labradors are the world's most popular dog. Labs and Lab crosses constitute almost 15 percent of all dogs in New Zealand. There are plenty of them well bred and with great owners. When I did a feature story on our dog population the second part of the story was devoted to Labs and just why they are so popular. Several Lab clubs contacted me for permission to use my story in promoting Lab ownership. A bit different would you not admit from the Debbie-type approach.

As for dogs registered with a national kennel club, Pem Corgis came in third on the list of pure bred puppy registrations for a 12 month period, two or three years in succession with the NZ kennel Club and held high spots before and after those years in the 1970s. But nowadays they rank outside the top 20. A lot of the reason for this drop are the Corgi clubs in NZ failing to capitalise on the popularity, and progress, nurture and build on their clubs and their (the clubs) activities. There are four Corgi clubs in NZ and my walking group may make it number five before long, but none of the clubs are in good shape. That Corgis are not among the top 20 most favourite breeds has got nothing to do with them being difficult to breed from and any inherent dangers of mothers and puppies succumbing to illness and internal dysfunctions. I believe that Pems here will come again.

glencorgi · 07-02-2006, 11:55 PM

Bonnie,

I applaud your compassion and proactive approach in the welfare of a dog unknown to you. That you are willing to go out of your way and provide educational materials is commendable. All you need to do is go over to Greene County and watch the number of Cardigans and Cardigan mixes - yes Cardigans that are showing up in their animal control. (Greene County is fairly close to where Bonnie lives. Their shelter is strictly animal control - no trying to find homes or adoptions; just keep the strays off the streets and euthanize. They do have a few select rescue groups they work with and which are able to get some animals out. The county does not have the resources to be anything other than they are - animal control as a public health and safety issue.) In the past year there have been four Cardigans found in the area, 3 definitely littermates, #4 - most likely related. Two more have just been pulled out this past week from Greene Co. and are now safe from being euthanised - all because breeding pairs have ended up in the wrong hands and the lack of responsibility on the part of both breeders and owners. Here, we can see all too easily the consequences of popularity on a breed. Health, temperament, quality are all the price of those capitalizing on the popularity. Owner retention becomes a huge problem, as pets are as disposable as yesterday's newspaper among too much of our citizenry. A year old little fellow I have been working with the past month was left at his local shelter by his family who was moving. They can just get another one when they get to their new location is what they told the staff.

Instead of the push of a corgi in every home, education is the approach used here in the US, and it is across all breeds. Give individuals substantive, factual information, the pros and the cons and the tools to make informed decisions for themselves. That is what makes GoCorgi what it says on the homepage - Corgi Community. Thanks for your contribution to the "community" Bonnie.

Debbie

Chip's Mom · 07-03-2006, 07:36 AM

One can try and rid a country of horrid breeders and very poor breeding methods - and indeed, expose such villains - but this should not stop attempts to glorify and thereby promote, publicise and (further) popularise Corgis world-wide. And this is what I believe Go Corgi is all about.

Michael:

Knowone is trying to stop the breeding of our corgis. Good Heavens if we did that nobody would be able to enjoy this special breed. I praise my Chip constantly, not for his agility or his obedience or the publicity he gets, but because he brings me so much happiness and love. There isn't a better breed of dog in the world than a corgi and their little soul is full of love and trust for their owners. That is why it hurts me so much to hear about a little one dying when it is totally unnecessary. If I didn't try to do something about it, I would not have a clear conscience. I do not believe nor will I ever believe that we should sacrifice some just to have another litter of puppies. As Debbie says, there are many in animal shelters all over the country that are as good as the litter that may come about from people who breed puppies that don't know what they are doing. There is more to life than the money a person would make from a litter of puppies NOW DO NOT TAKE ME WRONG! I am not against knowledgable people having a litter of puppies - I am against people who breed dogs simply to make money without any regard for the animal or it's life.

Michael Romanos · 07-04-2006, 07:05 PM

I am against improper breeding methods and all things associated with this. But we now have a group of Americans saying how dangerous breeding from Corgis is - and one of them wants to know where you find a website on the "hazards" of breeding Corgis. It is just right over the top and in my opinion is anti-promotion of Corgis

06-29-2006, 07:26 PM	#1 (permalink)
Chip's Mom Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Northeast TN Posts: 2,243 Images: 3	Breeding Corgis I am looking for good websites regarding the hazards of breeding Pems. If anyone has literature, websites, etc. please let me know. I work with a girl who's ex husband went to NC and bought 2 pems. A male and a female, less than a year ago. He brought them home, installed a wireless fence and that is where they lived. They got lost 3 times but were always returned compliments of a microchip. The female was a small corgi. When this girl told me about the breeding plans, I explained to her the risks associated with breeding corgis and she said her ex wouldn't listen if she told him. Anyway, periodically I would ask about this pup. When I asked the other day, she told me she had died. Her ex wouldn't say how but the girl told me that she was big with puppies and he said she was fine at 8:00 am and when he checked her at 10 pm she had died. He plans on getting another female to breed. This girl wants to educate her daughter in hopes that this will help the next pup. Strange but I had gotten attached to this pup and I had only seen her picture. I have often thought about her and wish she could have came to live at my house. Sorry for the long post.

07-02-2006, 11:55 PM	#13 (permalink)
glencorgi Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Piedmont Triad, NC Posts: 2,417 Images: 3	Bonnie, I applaud your compassion and proactive approach in the welfare of a dog unknown to you. That you are willing to go out of your way and provide educational materials is commendable. All you need to do is go over to Greene County and watch the number of Cardigans and Cardigan mixes - yes Cardigans that are showing up in their animal control. (Greene County is fairly close to where Bonnie lives. Their shelter is strictly animal control - no trying to find homes or adoptions; just keep the strays off the streets and euthanize. They do have a few select rescue groups they work with and which are able to get some animals out. The county does not have the resources to be anything other than they are - animal control as a public health and safety issue.) In the past year there have been four Cardigans found in the area, 3 definitely littermates, #4 - most likely related. Two more have just been pulled out this past week from Greene Co. and are now safe from being euthanised - all because breeding pairs have ended up in the wrong hands and the lack of responsibility on the part of both breeders and owners. Here, we can see all too easily the consequences of popularity on a breed. Health, temperament, quality are all the price of those capitalizing on the popularity. Owner retention becomes a huge problem, as pets are as disposable as yesterday's newspaper among too much of our citizenry. A year old little fellow I have been working with the past month was left at his local shelter by his family who was moving. They can just get another one when they get to their new location is what they told the staff. Instead of the push of a corgi in every home, education is the approach used here in the US, and it is across all breeds. Give individuals substantive, factual information, the pros and the cons and the tools to make informed decisions for themselves. That is what makes GoCorgi what it says on the homepage - Corgi Community. Thanks for your contribution to the "community" Bonnie. Debbie Last edited by glencorgi; 07-03-2006 at 12:01 AM.

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06-29-2006, 07:43 PM	#2 (permalink)
corgimom Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 3,199	That is just a sad story, and the dogs lived outside because he installed a wireless fence?? linda

06-30-2006, 08:59 AM	#3 (permalink)
Cardiguy Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 250 Images: 6	Some people don't deserve the priviledge of owning pets.

06-30-2006, 10:04 AM	#4 (permalink)
glencorgi Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Piedmont Triad, NC Posts: 2,417 Images: 3	Bonnie, I don't know of any sites specific to corgis. You are welcome to pass along the post I did to this site about breeding. Here are a couple of others, not Pembroke specific, but actual breeders' accounts: <http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/breeding/breeder3.html> Another one, along the lines of what I did to GoCorgi: <http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/breeding/breeder2.html> <http://www.global.net.au/~aegis/whybreed.htm> Reality is (at least here in the US) Pembrokes are not the easiest of breeds to whelp. Wednesday my sister (who is an active in breeding of Cardigans, Saint Bernards and Pugs and has assisted and whelped Pembroke litters as well as other breeds) and I spent 6 hours on the road (went to WV - T-gal's "neighborhood <g>) to go look at a couple of Cardigan puppies a breeder needed an opinion on and hand off a couple of girls in season to be bred to this breeder's stud dogs. We talked dogs all the way, during lunch and all the way home. Of all the breeds she's worked with over the last 15 or so years, my sister's comment was the breed she least liked to whelp was Pembrokes. They are the most stressful to her. One thing this guy CANNOT do is assume nature will take its course and he'll end up with puppies. Nature did take its course and he ended up with a dead dog and dead puppies. Pems require hands on assistance, they don't just crawl under the porch and deliver. There is a high incidence of c-sections required in Pembrokes. Puppies are often slow to come around and get started and need help with that. They also need constant supervision for at least the first 48 hours. How old is the daughter, because it sounds like she may be the one that is going to have to take action. IF he is going to do this again and the daughter is to be of help - she's going to have to tell him that by day 57 from the breeding he needs to bring this new female into the house. He needs to set up a whelping area - a small child's wading pool will work just fine. She needs to do some reading on whelping puppies so he will have the necessary supplies on hand for her and he needs to talk to a vet for some advice as well. Does he by chance have horses too? If so, he needs to talk to some of horsey friends who do the Pems as accessories to the barn and horses about their whelping experiences and get advice. I feel like I'm sort of blathering all over the place, but this is upsetting news on so many levels and a good example of why I don't play cheerleader for just any and everyone who pops up about corgis they're thinking about breeding. Given the location, IF this guy ever does have a litter of puppies, I about know where the ones who don't work out in their new homes are going to end up. <sigh> Any of this you'd like to pass along to your friend, you have my permission to do so and anything I might be able to do to help the daughter, I'll be glad to try. Debbie

06-30-2006, 10:36 AM	#5 (permalink)
Chip's Mom Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Northeast TN Posts: 2,243 Images: 3	Thanks Debbie. I have been waiting for your post. I am going to cut, paste, and edit this and send along to her. I think the daughter is maybe 14. He has had horses in the past but not so sure now. It is upsetting. I was very depressed about it. I had thought many times, if she had gotten loose and I found her, I would have just kept her. That may not be the right thing to have done, but she would have still been alive. I will keep you posted.

06-30-2006, 11:02 PM	#6 (permalink)
Michael Romanos Global Moderator Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Silverstream (near Wellington, the capital of NZ) Posts: 4,896 Images: 2	It's incredible and sad that Corgis are such a problem for breeding purposes in the USA and no where else.

07-01-2006, 11:46 PM	#8 (permalink)
Michael Romanos Global Moderator Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Silverstream (near Wellington, the capital of NZ) Posts: 4,896 Images: 2	Just as with humans, dog birthing has its hiccups where things can go horribly wrong even with the best care. But I do believe there is either something about the USA which is prohibitive for Corgis procreating or Debbie is promoting some kind of hysteria in a bid to drop the Corgi population and popularity in her country.

07-02-2006, 05:44 AM	#10 (permalink)
corgimom Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 3,199	Deb, I love Corgis and I would hate to see them up there with the Black labs in regards to the number of them that would be registered. Every day when I check out the Classifieds, it is just ads and ads of labs for sale - how sad, what type of breeding is going on? Michael, I don't think Deb is creating some hysteria promoting to drop the Corgi population here - she deals with Rescue on an ongoing basis and knows what comes of bad breeding. Linda

07-02-2006, 08:58 PM	#11 (permalink)
Chip's Mom Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Northeast TN Posts: 2,243 Images: 3	Michael: I didn't post this to start a discussion on breeding corgis. I posted this to help an unknown puppy before she ends up like the first one did. If I can provide them with enough information regarding the hazards of birthing puppies maybe they will decide not to try again or learn how to do it the proper way. Also, these people use an invisible fence to keep their corgis in their yard which gives free access to any male dog in the neighborhood. These dogs are not allowed in the house. The male corgi is also in this yard putting him at risk trying to protect his mate.

07-02-2006, 10:06 PM	#12 (permalink)
Michael Romanos Global Moderator Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Silverstream (near Wellington, the capital of NZ) Posts: 4,896 Images: 2	One can try and rid a country of horrid breeders and very poor breeding methods - and indeed, expose such villains - but this should not stop attempts to glorify and thereby promote, publicise and (further) popularise Corgis world-wide. And this is what I believe Go Corgi is all about. Labradors are the world's most popular dog. Labs and Lab crosses constitute almost 15 percent of all dogs in New Zealand. There are plenty of them well bred and with great owners. When I did a feature story on our dog population the second part of the story was devoted to Labs and just why they are so popular. Several Lab clubs contacted me for permission to use my story in promoting Lab ownership. A bit different would you not admit from the Debbie-type approach. As for dogs registered with a national kennel club, Pem Corgis came in third on the list of pure bred puppy registrations for a 12 month period, two or three years in succession with the NZ kennel Club and held high spots before and after those years in the 1970s. But nowadays they rank outside the top 20. A lot of the reason for this drop are the Corgi clubs in NZ failing to capitalise on the popularity, and progress, nurture and build on their clubs and their (the clubs) activities. There are four Corgi clubs in NZ and my walking group may make it number five before long, but none of the clubs are in good shape. That Corgis are not among the top 20 most favourite breeds has got nothing to do with them being difficult to breed from and any inherent dangers of mothers and puppies succumbing to illness and internal dysfunctions. I believe that Pems here will come again.

07-03-2006, 07:36 AM	#14 (permalink)
Chip's Mom Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Northeast TN Posts: 2,243 Images: 3	One can try and rid a country of horrid breeders and very poor breeding methods - and indeed, expose such villains - but this should not stop attempts to glorify and thereby promote, publicise and (further) popularise Corgis world-wide. And this is what I believe Go Corgi is all about. Michael: Knowone is trying to stop the breeding of our corgis. Good Heavens if we did that nobody would be able to enjoy this special breed. I praise my Chip constantly, not for his agility or his obedience or the publicity he gets, but because he brings me so much happiness and love. There isn't a better breed of dog in the world than a corgi and their little soul is full of love and trust for their owners. That is why it hurts me so much to hear about a little one dying when it is totally unnecessary. If I didn't try to do something about it, I would not have a clear conscience. I do not believe nor will I ever believe that we should sacrifice some just to have another litter of puppies. As Debbie says, there are many in animal shelters all over the country that are as good as the litter that may come about from people who breed puppies that don't know what they are doing. There is more to life than the money a person would make from a litter of puppies NOW DO NOT TAKE ME WRONG! I am not against knowledgable people having a litter of puppies - I am against people who breed dogs simply to make money without any regard for the animal or it's life.

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07-04-2006, 07:05 PM	#15 (permalink)
Michael Romanos Global Moderator Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Silverstream (near Wellington, the capital of NZ) Posts: 4,896 Images: 2	I am against improper breeding methods and all things associated with this. But we now have a group of Americans saying how dangerous breeding from Corgis is - and one of them wants to know where you find a website on the "hazards" of breeding Corgis. It is just right over the top and in my opinion is anti-promotion of Corgis