Leash Training

[newcorgiowner]

So we tried some of the suggestions for leash training on the board but we can't get past one big obstacle. All she seems to want to do is sit down and chew on her leash. Even when we can get her to run to us she runs with her leash in her mouth.

Any suggestions on what to do?

[CorgiMum]

I haven't had a dog yet that puts it's leash in it mouth, but I understand that there are 2 things that might work. First teaching 'out' and secondly putting Bitter Apple on the object that the pup mouths.

It may be a case of wanting to play, or most likey the pup is saying that 'you' are not in charge of 'me' with this leash.

What methods have you tried so far?

[corgimom]

Try the bitter apple on the end of her leash, it worked wonders for me. Just spray it on - the taste usually lasts for a few days and as soon as she puts it in her mouth, she will spit it back out.

I had to do this several times when he was a young puppy - he no longer attempts to put the leash in his mouth at all anymore.

It will also work on other things she may want to chew on.

You can get Bitter Apple at any pet store.

Linda

[newcorgiowner]

I got the bitter apple when i first got the pup. I had two problems with it. The first and most important problem was that it seemed to get *everywhere*. I was tasting bitter apple for days and wasn't able to enjoy a decent meal. Everytime i would lick my lips I would come back with the bitter apple taste.

The other problem with it is that Gizmo seems to like it. I bought it back when we had Matti because they had a habbit of chewing on each others collars while fighting. So I soaked their collars in the bitter apple in the hopes of preventing it. After I did that I held it up so that she could lick it to get the idea that doing so is a bad idea. But instead of licking it and being repulsed she continued to do so like she enjoyed it.

As for the other methods I've tried, we left the leash on her for a few days and let her run around with it so she would get used to it being there, my fiance and I tried to play games with her outside while she had the leash on. She'd hold the leash and I would call her to me. More often then not she'd just chew the leash and when she did come to me it was always with the leash in her mouth.

Once we clean our apartment a little so that there are less distractions I am going to try again inside and see if I have better luck in an enviorment where she can sort of pay attention in.

[Michael Romanos]

I would not really want to put a leash on a puppy until they are three months old at least. I use a very lightweight, and extra short choke chain. Learning to walk under tow and not pulling or biting on the leash can be learnt very quickly. I have always been in a position to display a four month old Pem at conformation shows.
It needs a little tug on the lead (leash), a little vocalisation (on your part) and little treats for any efforts well done. For a start, circling around might be better than straight up and down. And keep to one side - usually left.

[corgimom]

My new trainer in Cody's puppy class does not allow choke collars or prong collars in her class - she said if one decides to use a choke collar, one must be very careful that they put it on the right way. She is not a fan of them and puts them on the bottom of her list. For newcorgiowner, I am assuming he has to use a collar and leash now when they take Gizmo out to go potty and to keep an eye on him when he romps around the grounds a bit.

There are other sprays out there besides bitter apple that he may not like - my Cody disliked the taste of bitter apple very much.

A question, would maybe a spritz of Apple Cider vinegar on the leash work?


Linda

[Michael Romanos]

With due respect to your puppy trainer and any other in the world, their advice as much as mine, may not be correct which makes a chocker chain of the type and weight that I have described and used carefully by the handler ideally suited for Corgis. I use my lead and chocker at the weekly agility training I have been attending for 18 months and I am the only one who does - and not one of the instructors (there are about eight of them) have been critical.

[corgimom]

Michael,

It is just her opinion, and just as there are many different trainers, they will
all have different opinions. Now in the last puppy class I was in, there was
a rather aggressive Australian Cattle Dog where the owner had a prong collar
on him - The trainer of that class never said anything about the collar. Now
in this class, the trainer said to never put a prong collar on a agressive type
of dog because it only makes the dog more aggressive - so like I said, I could
enroll in 5 different classes and each trainer would have their own opinion, whether they are right or wrong I do not know, but they must have some sort of knowledge as to why they implement their methods and ideas, or no one would take classes from them and keep coming back.

Linda

[glencorgi]

In the US there is a real anti-choke (chocker) sentiment among a wide school of trainers, so I am not surprised Linda's trainer has this attitude at all. They are seen as harsh and from the "old school method of training of pop and jerk." There is a a strong sentiment of positive only - to the extreme one should never correct their dog - no negative consequences at all. I just saw a post on the performance corgis list which didn't want to use a tie-down board for articles (this would be in advanced obedience where the dog is supposed to bring back a scented glove for example) because it could mean negative consequences and might frighten their dog. A lot of these trainers throw everything considered not "positive" out - like the baby with the bath water and fail to acknowledge that they are just tools. Many will go with the head collars (halti's) for dogs that pull and dogs and owners are left at that stage, never really solving the problem of a pulling dog, just a panacea because the dog doesn't pull when wearing the halti.

The ultimate goal <IMHO> is to get one's dog to walk nicely on a flat buckle or rolled leather collar. The use of halti's, choke collars, even prong collars are tools along the road to that goal.

Choke (chocker) collars do have to be put on correctly and there can be risk of injury if they are not and or not used properly. Prong collars are really less harsh than choke collars because it is the dog causing the pressure, not the human IF they are used correctly. One issue I have with some of the trainers who disallow certain types of collars and are in the "touchy-feely warm fuzzy" school of training is they're failure to acknowledge - ONE SIZE DOES NOT FIT ALL!

I use chokers - they are what are used in the conformation ring and have no problem with them. With a new foster - I have no idea what they are going to be like as far as a leash goes and the last thing I want is for one to slip a collar and end up as road kill. Knowing the anti-choke sentiment among so many brainwashed by ar's and warm fuzzies trainers, this is my collar assortment: slip leads (like they use at vet offices - always at least one in my car), no-slip collars (these are the style used on sighthounds, also known as greyhound collars and martingales; can be seen at <http://www.corgirescuestlouis.org/sale.html#premier>), and I've added an adjustable type "choke" collar <http://www.whitepineoutfitters.com/>. I also have metal chokes and some nylon ones and of course an assortment of sizes of buckle collars. Which one I use, depends upon what I'm doing with a particular dog at the time and what that INDIVIDUAL dog responds to and needs.

Back to the question at hand, leash training and Gizmo and Bitter Apple. Yea, Bitter Apple doesn't bother all dogs. I know of one CWC that would lick it - "spit" - lick some more - "spit" until the taste was gone and she could get into whatever it was she was after.

Tabasco sauce has been used by some as anti-chewing deterent (carefully placed of course). The apple cider vinegar, possibly might work - although I will add it to drinking water from time to time for one with UTI problems. I have had a few who liked "to walk themselves." I tighten up the slack right at the collar, use "annnnt," will do a slight tug correction ... different things and LOTS and LOTS of good dog/puppy when they walk nicely.

With the early litters of puppies we had, we could get them pretty easily leash trained at 8 weeks even. The trick, which is what Cindy is lucky enough to have with Darci and Egan, is adult leash trained dog tolerant of puppies. It takes two people (at least) one walking the adult dog and the other with the collection of puppy leashes in hand. Puppies follow the adult dog like ducklings. Now that isn't saying I haven't had my share of times of being tied to the stake by leashes.

Debbie

[grnrom]

My pup used to do the same. He would try and chew his leash and when I asked him to come to me, he would but with the leash in his mouth. When he had the leash in his mouth, I just gave the leash a quick tug and said "NO" in a low disapproving voice. He would drop the leash, and I would praise him imediately for dropping the leash. After about 2 days of that, he no longer tries to chew the leash. You can try it, or if your pup has all his/her vaccinations, then perhaps you can take an basic obedience class. That would definatley help your issue and then some. FYI, my dog obedience trainer also uses choke collars and as long as you put them on correctly they are affective and doesn't appear to hurt the dog. On a puppy, I would not use a choke collar, especially for walking or playing. A regular collar should be fine. For training, I use a choker. Good lcuk

[Michael Romanos]

Some people using a choke chain on a dog would be like dynamite in the hands of a child. You have got to know how to utilise it to not hurt or choke or constrict a dogs breathing and yet it can be a valuable 'tool' when necessary. I have only had a choke chain for all my Corgis from the moment they were lead-trained. A very important aspect is the type of choke chain and lead. A lot of people have heavy chain and solid leads and with little Corgis all you require is the most lightweight chain you can buy (sold usually only at Conformation Show stalls in NZ) and one that just fits snuggly onto the Corgis neck. The lead can be as thin as you like and one with quite a bit of length - this enables a Corgi quite a lot of leeway when walking or running on-lead. My Corgis have been happy and when necessary, control is enhanced.

[corgimom]

I pulled out the Training collar info sheet handed out by my instructor and here is what it says - this is just in regards to the "not recommended ones"

Not Recommended:

Prong Collar - if fitted properly, can be very useful training device for some dogs. Too many links in the collar can cause injury and allow the collar to slide further down the neck than is desired for proper function. The reason I have placed the prong collar on the not recommended list is that most times the collar is not used correctly. Not recommended for dogs with aggression issues.

Choke chain/strangle collar - least favorite among professional trainers. Dogs have been killed due to strangulation and there can be tracheal damage due to unrelenting choke of the collar. If y ou have a dog that pulls this collar wiill continue to close tight on your dogs neck and may cause loss of consciousness. The collar was designed to inflict pain during training using old fashioned methods. Not recommended at all!

So, yes, just one trainers opinion.

She may be one of those "touchy, fuzzy" types. In our first class, one guys dog started barking and the owner told him "shh", Cody barked and I said "quiet" and she said that we should redirect them to do something else - like telling them to "sit" or "lay down" in order to get them focused on doing something rather than barking. I personally, did not think there is anything wrong with telling ones dog to be "quiet". Is that too negative?

linda

[CorgiMum]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

Some people using a choke chain on a dog would be like dynamite in the hands of a child. You have got to know how to utilise it to not hurt or choke or constrict a dogs breathing and yet it can be a valuable 'tool' when necessary.

Exactly Michael! You have said it perfectly. And that of course holds true for any training tools.

I would like to add that I was taught that it was the slight 'sound' of the metal choke chain the the dog should respond to, and that undue length can cause too much of a pull by the owner, so again the length is very important. Trainers that do allow them in classes usually sell them there, and it is best to have a professional properly fit one to the dog if one is to be used.

I went to an 'old school' trainer with Montrose. I did not follow my instincts and admit that I worked her too hard. Our negative experiences during that time is what made me shy away from the Ob ring, which I have now come to enjoy a great deal.

With Dylan, I had learned my lessons, I have used both types of collars with him, for a short time only, when he was young and just begining his training. But with a much thought out plan, and a very gentle hand.

I firmly believe in positive training, but with all training, commom sense must prevail. Letting a dog know that a particular behavior is negative is to me just as important as praising for the good. Redirection is fine, but to me the dog should understand why he is being redirected.

And I know of no greater reward in training than when one of my dogs and I connect, when not a collar of any kind, or a lead is needed for my companion to obey be. To me, in dog training, the greatest asset is the bond of trust. And that comes with time and much patience. And well worth it too.

[Michael Romanos]

I doubt if there is even one experienced or reasonably experienced handler in New Zealand of Corgis in rhe conformation show ring, who doesn't use a choke chain. And most of them would extend the practice for everyday use.
I generally use the chain in an opposite setting ie the chain does not tighten up as in 'choke' - but it give the handler the ability to steer a Corgi better when on the lead and it is nice and light and it gives the handler the feeling at most times that there is nothing attached to the dog.

[Gizmo's mom]

You can call me "warm and fuzzy" if you want, and I'm not saying any of you who do use choke collars carefully without hurting the dog are horrible people or anything, but I think they sound awful. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a PETA hippie or anything (um, no offense to any PETA members here). I eat meat, I wear leather, and I gave up trying to find decent shampoo that doesn't test on animals. I have no problem lightly smacking the dog on the rump or tapping her on the nose to enforce a "no." But I think some of the things we do to our four-legged "best friends" are sometimes really horrific. Declawing, tail-docking-- I'm not quite putting choke collars in that catagory, but they're out of the question for me (and I hope newcorgiowner agrees with me). We're not going to show her, we do plan to enroll her in obedience classes when she's had her shots, so I don't think it's really necessary at all.

Gizmo's doing better now-- we treated her leash with cayenne pepper and watched her carefully to make sure she didn't get too much at once. This worked with my cats-- they liked to eat my plants until I painted the leaves with some cayenne-laced water, and after they got a taste of that they never touched them again. She still fights the leash when she gets to the end, turning on it and furiously biting it (if you can call a five pound anything "furious"). She's just over ten weeks old, she'll be three months August 6. Right now she's fine to let run around without the leash-- we can easily catch her-- but she's fast and getting faster every day. It's hard to believe now we thought she was wobbly when we first saw her. In a couple weeks we probably won't be able to catch her, and with a large hedge of thick bushes on one side and a busy road on the other of the large field we walk her in, I don't want to take chances, so she may as well get used to it.