Origin of the Corgi

[Michael Romanos]

There's been some controversy recently on GoCorgis regarding the origins of the Cardi and the Pem.
Debbie maintains there is Terrier in Corgis and that's the way the American Kennel Club had grouped Corgis when they were first accepted as a purebred in the USA.
The origins of Corgis is based on theories and no one knows with any certainty the true origins of todays's Pems and Cardis.
The Cardigan is said to go back in time at least 2000 years but it is pretty obvious that the Welsh farm dogs of 2000 -3000 years ago bore little resemblance to the Corgis of today.
Along the way in their development, it is believed the Cardigan Corgi picked up a Techel gene. Now Techels are basically Dachshunds from Central Europe and that would have given Cardigans a real makeover in shape- long back and short legs included. There are only two breeds of dogs in the world that are true dwarf - the Dachshund and the Welsh Corgi. Dachshunds are mostly hound with a little Terrier. That therefore constitutes the Terrier aspect to the Cardigan. Around 1000 years ago, it is believed that some of the Cardigans had liasions with the Valhund - a Scandinavian breed brought to Wales by the Vikings and from this was created the Pembroke variety of the Welsh Corgi. The Valhund is a Spitz type dog and is not closely related to Terriers. Valhunds are very much a Corgi-looking species - around the same size as a Pem (only slightly smaller in body length and only slightly longer legged). That is why the Pembrokes are given the status of belonging to the Spitz grouping of dogs - and they don't look out of place in that company.
But from these theories that I have repeated, there is not really anything concrete that would entertain today's canine experts into grouping Corgis in with Hounds or Terriers- either in mannerisms, activities or in breeding. It is now evident that all dogs species are related, from the tiniest to the largest, which means that at the onset of the origin of the dog, there was just a single breed. So therefore there is always going to be a correlation between all the breeds of dogs.

[tandemgal]

removed by T-Gal

[Michael Romanos]

Hi T-Gal
Pomeranian influence? There are also fluffy Cardis and they are not Spitz but then again there is that Cardi-Pem intermingling that continued on to some extent right up to the 1930s.

When this Burton talks about the four groupings of dogs it's about the evolvement of type. But I think these groupings and the old theory that dogs came from three basic sources - Wolves, Foxes and Hyhenas, have now been superceded by the DNA-proven theory that all dogs evolved from a single source.

As for the Dingo. Well, human life almost certainly started in Africa. The Aborigine of Australia - one of the oldest known races in the world - also started in Africa and they would have brought the Dingo to Australia all those many thousands of years ago.

As I said previously, the Teckel is basically the Dachshund and the Dachies are mainly Hound with some Terrier.

But please continue to delve into the history of the dog and keep me in touch with your findings.

There are Vallhunds in New Zealand and I have seen a few at conformation shows and one in agility - who is a very smart performer. They might look Pembroke Corgish but they haven't a patch on the Pem in lots of ways.

[glencorgi]

[quote=Michael Romanos]There's been some controversy recently on GoCorgis regarding the origins of the Cardi and the Pem.

I don't think it was a controversy, just a differing opinion based on diferrent levels of research, reading, resources and mentoring.

>Debbie maintains there is Terrier in Corgis and that's the way the American >Kennel Club had grouped Corgis when they were first accepted as a >purebred in the USA.

Not what I said at all. A part of the corgis' (and I mean both breeds) original jobs was ratting and vermin control. That a cross breeding to terriers might have been done to boost this trait/quality is not out of the question. Corgis were accepted as being purebred long before they were granted AKC recognition. What I said was when Pembrokes were first accepted for AKC recognition and eligible to be shown, they were admitted into the Terrier group. (Two characteristics I find Pembrokes do share with Terriers (and other breeds do as well) are the PWC's tenacity and attitude.) They were moved to the Working Group some time afterwards. Cardigans, after acceptance and were eligible to be shown, were in the Working Group. Both breeds were moved to the Herding Group after it was split off from the Working Group.

>The origins of Corgis is based on theories and no one knows with any >certainty the true origins of todays's Pems and Cardis.
>The Cardigan is said to go back in time at least 2000 years but it is pretty >obvious that the Welsh farm dogs of 2000 -3000 years ago bore little >resemblance to the Corgis of today.

It is believed that the Cardigan is closer to the aboriginal Welsh cattle dog than is the Pembroke.

<http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/3646319.stm>
First 'royal' corgi bones found

Instead of commenting further on the merits or fallacies I find in Michael's history of the breed(s), instead I'll pass along some websites with some really informative articles on the history of both breeds.
<http://www.cardicommentary.de/History.htm>
<http://www.pwcca.org/art_history_ssh.html>
<http://www.cardigancorgis.com/History.aspx>

This will save a long post from me on the subject. <G>

There are few things I would like to comment on though;

>Along the way in their development, it is believed the Cardigan Corgi >picked up a Techel gene. Now Techels are basically Dachshunds from Central >Europe

It is Teckel, not Techel and Teckel is a family which includes the Dachshunds and Basset Hounds among others.

> There are only two breeds of dogs in the world that are true dwarf - the >Dachshund and the Welsh Corgi.

Not true. There are a number of chrondoplasitc breeds.
<http://consumer.vetmedcenter.com/consumer/display.asp?dt=v&id=8714>
"Breeds considered achondroplastic include the Bulldog, Boston terrier, Pug, Pekingese, Japanese spaniel, and Shih- Tzu
Breeds considered hypochondroplastic include the Dachshund, Basset hound, Beagle, Welsh corgi, Dandie Dinmont terrier, Scottish terrier, and Skye terrier"

Debbie

[Michael Romanos]

It is utter nonsense to say that the original jobs of Corgis was for ratting and vermin control when we all know that they were bred for general farming duties that involved livestock in the valleys of Wales. Lets just admit that the USA got it wrong and move on.

[glencorgi]

[quote=Michael Romanos]Hi T-Gal
> Pomeranian influence? There are also fluffy Cardis and they are not Spitz >but then again there is that Cardi-Pem intermingling that continued on to >some extent right up to the 1930s.

There are several schools of history that there the interbreeding wasn't necessarily as widespread as once believed. I've seen open coated PWC's that could remind me of Poms,but I don't think Pom whenever I see a fluffy PWC. Dachshunds also have long-coated varieties and the merle both of which are seen in CWC's.

Debbie

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

It is utter nonsense to say that the original jobs of Corgis was for ratting and vermin control when we all know that they were bred for general farming duties that involved livestock in the valleys of Wales. Lets just admit that the USA got it wrong and move on.

While moving stock was their primary task, they were also expected to be ALL ROUND farm dogs which meant they multi-tasked! What is so hard to understand about that? Ratting and vermin control was not their ONLY job - just one of the tasks they performed around the Welsh farmstead.

YES, the AKC got it WRONG when they first categorized the PWC's, but it was changed. It is just a bit of interesting history that some list members might enjoy.

Debbie

[Michael Romanos]

Thanks Debbie. Like girls (humans), some dogs can do anything.

Corgis - Cardis and Pems evolved over time with the help of some significant influx from other breeds of dogs (as per my original post in this section) and this obviously altered their abilities to the extent that they became excellent and noted herding dogs, losing most of whatever hunting capabilities they possessed.

In New Zealand, Corgis have been (and still are to a small extent) successfully utilised as farm dogs for livestock movement. There are many dogs here in quasi Government service who are used for tracking down and in some cases, killing unwanted animals who are threatening native birds etc - particularly some of the rarest species in the world. These dogs are from the Terrier group and include Fox Terriers, Border Terriers and Cairns Terriers and a mixed Terrier bunch. I couldn't imagine even a farming Corgi footing it with these crusty little fellows who can endure the extremes of climates and conditions including dense mountainous bush, and go on the hunt for days and even weeks on end. The Terriers are trained for hunting out specific animals such as weasels, stoats, ferrel cats, rats, possoms, ferrets, boars, rabbits.
Corgis are very good at the sport of tracking - though we do not have this as a separate sport in NZ - but what the service dogs do in tracking down unwanted animals is on another level.

[glencorgi]

I think the versatility we see in both breeds today all goes back to the variety of farm tasks they were called to perform back in their days on the Welsh farmsteads. PWC's have been successful as gundogs (Sinbad of Wey), even titled in Schutzhund (Schulhaus Billy the Kid). Both breeds excel in tracking and a few Cardigans are also part of search and rescue teams. I think it was in 1998 at the USDAA (one of the more difficult agility venues) eight of the top 10 placers in the 12 inch division were corgis, with a Cardigan winning the class. I also know of corgis that have enjoyed lure coursing. Particularly exciting these days is the number of corgis attaining advanced herding titles. In AKC there is one Cardigan herding champion (and I believe he is a dual CH - which means he also has his AKC conformation championship) and five PWC AKC herding CH's. Two of those are a mother and son; the other 3 are dual champions, two of them littermates - brother and sister. And in PWC's it was the "girls" that both attained the herding championshps first. The High in Trial PWC at the 2005 PWCCA Herding National was a rescue PWC. All of this I think speaks volumes that the breeds are staying true to their roots.

Debbie