Co-Ownerships

[breepeace]

A Pem breeder whose dogs I have admired for awhile has a really strict co-ownership agreement on her dogs.

I'm looking for a show quality male, so not only do I have to pay for 100% of the care, training, health, show related costs and health clearances, she has a clause in her co-ownership agreement stating she is allowed to use her co-owned males at stud to any dog she owns or co-owns, free of charge, AND receives 50% of the stud fees I would receive for the use of him to outside bitches.

I really don't think I'm willing to sign that. As much as I admire her dogs, I'm going to end up feeling resentful and used, which is not at all the way I want to feel about my dog's breeder.

Does this sound normal to anyone?

I mentioned it to another pem breeder and she didn't think it sounded too unreasonable at all.

I understand there's a huge investment in breeding dogs, and I have no problem getting health clearances and titling the dog, nor would I have a problem with him getting one complimentary use on a owned or co-owned bitch, but whenever she wants to?? And money back on outside breedings? That sounds like a cash grab to me.

The terms are, unfortunately, non-negotiable, and since she has the nicest dogs in my immediate area (and almost the entirety of my country), I think I may end up importing from outside the country, but I'm worried it's going to be like that with quality Pem breeders worldwide.

My hunt for my 'perfect puppy' has been going horribly so far. Maybe someone has a recommendation for a breeder with nice quality Pems who is FAIR?

[Michael Romanos]

I was in a co-ownership arrangement with one of my Corgis and discovered that it was meaningless/unhelpful to me but gave the other owner credit and authority when it comes to breeding. I was paying out all the upkeep after paying the initial purchase cost so there was no gain from that score. And in the show ring etc, the dog I handled was also owned by a 'missing' person. I still had to do all the hard yards vis feeding-trainng-exercising to bring up to show standard, and yet only got a share of the plaudits. I eventually got out of the 'scheme.' Co-ownership is good for the silent partner but not for the REAL hands-on owner. And this is not just my assessment because I randomly contacted several major breeders of dogs ( not Corgis) and not one of them saw any advantage for me - why would you agree to it they asked.

If you really want to import a beautiful and potential show champion and don't mind the extra expense of travel costs in airlifting a pup from New Zealand to your nearest airport, let me know.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by breepeace

I'm looking for a show quality male, so not only do I have to pay for 100% of the care, training, health, show related costs and health clearances, she has a clause in her co-ownership agreement stating she is allowed to use her co-owned males at stud to any dog she owns or co-owns, free of charge, AND receives 50% of the stud fees I would receive for the use of him to outside bitches.

I really don't think I'm willing to sign that. As much as I admire her dogs, I'm going to end up feeling resentful and used, which is not at all the way I want to feel about my dog's breeder.

Does this sound normal to anyone?

Co-owerships can be anything the co-owners agreee to. And yes, it sounds normal to me. I've heard of arrangements like this.

I placed a male on a co-ownership once and retained the right to breed to him. I did not require any payment for any other stud services though.

And yes, if the dog lives with you and you are the primary owner you should be responsible for his upkeep and show expenses. That is perfectly normal.

Sometimes co-ownerships are "in name only" so the breeder can keep track of the dog and limit the breeding of that dog. Since the co-owner also has to sign any registration papers. This is common for someone just starting in dogs. The breeder retains a co-ownership and some control until the owner "proves" themselves as responsible and wanting to stay with showing the dog.

I understand there's a huge investment in breeding dogs, and I have no problem getting health clearances and titling the dog, nor would I have a problem with him getting one complimentary use on a owned or co-owned bitch, but whenever she wants to?? And money back on outside breedings? That sounds like a cash grab to me.

There are lots of breeders in the US. Try talking to some others. You should be able to find one with an agreement that is acceptable to you.

If you'd like some recommendations contatct me at one of my email address in my siganture and I'll see if I can recommend some breeders near you.

Peggy

[breepeace]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

If you really want to import a beautiful and potential show champion and don't mind the extra expense of travel costs in airlifting a pup from New Zealand to your nearest airport, let me know.

Your proposed co-ownership sounds just like the one my mom was bound to with her Bouvier, except as a bitch, she was only to bred twice by the breeder who kept the money from the puppies. Mom was, of course, responsible for all costs incurred through her show career, advertising wins and for her health clearances. She was dreadfully unhappy in it, and ended up getting burned in the end when DD was diagnosed with HD anyway, and her replacement puppy died on the operating table when having her ears cropped. She ended up having one dog in constant pain and the breeder released her from the co-ownership. Big price to pay to get out of it, IMO.

I've been asking people all day what they think about the co-ownership and am literally getting berated for not agreeing to what I think is a really rigid and unfair contract, since it's 'well accepted'. I know what's best for me, and I don't want to feel so used 5 years down the road that I don't even want to speak to my breeder about it. I'd just prefer to look elsewhere, and am surprised that so many breeders would expect such a high cost for their dogs, especially if I'm already out there promoting their lines through exhibiting my dog of their breeding.

If I were to buy a car from a dealership and they made me sign a contract with a clause that stated they could take my car out for a test drive whenever they wanted to with no financial compensation, I wouldn't.

I know breeders work hard to get the quality dogs that they breed, and I respect that, I want to be a guardian to their breed, but I also want mutual respect, and by that I mean respect that I'm putting in just as much work as they did breeding the litter.

I love dogs, I'm not interested in breeding, but I am interested in working with a great dog to have fun in a hobby I've enjoyed most of my life.

The benefits are actually few to a puppy buyer. They get their dog, and the possibility of the fun that can sometimes be had in the dog world, but the breeder is already going to profit by having a dog out there being a great ambassador for the breed at no cost to them.

That seems pretty win-win to me.

I may just have to think on get a puppy from NZ, though! I've been toying with the import idea for a few days now.

[Michael Romanos]

The breeding arrangement part of most co-ownerships can be a sticky subject. Some co-ownerships insist that the co-owner/breeder takes over full responsibilities of a mating programme and you may lose your loved pet for many weeks and only get a share of the stud fees or sale of puppies or indeed have to concede the pick of the litter/s.

If you import from Australia or New Zealand from leading breeders I would say you need to be serious at handling the Corgi in the show ring and/or with a breeding aspect in mind. But there are always exceptions.

I have another proposition. There is a breeder in Canada - an hour away from the US-Can border, who has stunning direct NZ bred and NZ associated Pems, one of which is a sister of my Pem. The breeder is happy to export puppies to the USA if and when she has any available.

[breepeace]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

The breeding arrangement part of most co-ownerships can be a sticky subject. Some co-ownerships insist that the co-owner/breeder takes over full responsibilities of a mating programme and you may lose your loved pet for many weeks and only get a share of the stud fees or sale of puppies or indeed have to concede the pick of the litter/s.

If you import from Australia or New Zealand from leading breeders I would say you need to be serious at handling the Corgi in the show ring and/or with a breeding aspect in mind. But there are always exceptions.

I have another proposition. There is a breeder in Canada - an hour away from the US-Can border, who has stunning direct NZ bred and NZ associated Pems, one of which is a sister of my Pem. The breeder is happy to export puppies to the USA if and when she has any available.

I'm in Canada actually, could you send me a PM with the breeder's name?

I'm serious about the show ring, but not really interested in breeding, which was kind of the reasoning behind having a male. If he were nice enough to sire puppies, then so be it, but I'm not sure the breeding aspect is for me.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by breepeace

I've been asking people all day what they think about the co-ownership and am literally getting berated for not agreeing to what I think is a really rigid and unfair contract, since it's 'well accepted'. I know what's best for me, and I don't want to feel so used 5 years down the road that I don't even want to speak to my breeder about it. I'd just prefer to look elsewhere, and am surprised that so many breeders would expect such a high cost for their dogs, especially if I'm already out there promoting their lines through exhibiting my dog of their breeding.

I agree you shouldn't sign anything that you feel uncomfortable with.

Peggy

[Michael Romanos]

Bree - Contact Shelley of Raglan Kennels. Her email address is raglancorgis@sympatico.ca
Tell Shelley that you are interested in a New Zealand-related Pem pup in 'talking' to Michael Romanos (owner of Taylor re Merthyr More Likely). Tell Shelley from the onset that you are not interested in co-ownership arrangements or breeding contracts but that you are keen on conformation showing and want a show quality Pem.
Shelley is a lovely, level headed person and a wonderful manager of her Corgis and has handled many champions of the show ring.

[Michael Romanos]

Raglan Kennels in Canada will soon ( late August) have Pembroke Corgi pups for sale from dogs who are probably related to Taylor. Unfortunately, Bree is not quite ready to take on a pup but if anyone else is interested in making enquiries, feel free to do so.