bringing home the puppy - Page 2

Michael Romanos · 08-14-2007, 06:19 PM

This whole discussion is a little out of kilter because a large minority of regular dog breeders including Corgi breeders are not the finely crafted experts and illustrious breeders and great communicators as some Go Corgi members would have us believing. And conversely, a large minority of the horse fraternity who also own a Corgi would love their Corgis just as we do and go to similar lengths of care and attention as they give their horses.

glencorgi · 08-14-2007, 09:17 PM

Okay, this is not a soapbox, instead more of a vent. The majority of the owner turn-in rescues I get are NOT pet shop impulse purchases rather they come from horsey breeders with the corgis as horse accessory mentality and selling to anyone who has the $ on the day. Furthermore, once that sale is made that's it, as far as support or questions or if the owners can't keep or don't want the corgi anymore, owners are on their own and when the corgi reaches throwaway status - then it is up to anyone but them to take care of the problem.

In general, horsey breeders DO NOT apply the same standards and ethics they do in their horse breedings. I don't get why they don't, but that's just the way it is. One would think that things like structural evaluations, soundness, movement and such would matter in the dogs or that there would be a better understanding of such - I've yet to meet anyone from the horse world attempting to dabble in dogs who gets it.

Puppy alley at the big horse shows are filled with the barn accessory breeds and mixes thereof. Puppies for sale so they'll have extra pocket cash to spend at the show. Just had a request on the rescue list looking for an intact female corgi to breed to their Australian shepherd male. All the puppies would be destined for horse homes.

And for the record I happen to personally know at least one of the PWCCA members in Michigan (the PWCCA does NOT register breeders, btw). Does she screen homes? YES Does she ask questions and match puppies to appropriate homes? YES Is she upfront about things like umbilical hernias and require spay and neuter on pets? YES Would you have been lucky to get one of her wonderful puppies - YES This is a woman who goes above and beyond with any and every puppy she brings into this world. (I also know owners of her corgis and the corgis themselves.)

It is not unusual for horsey breeders to let their puppies go way too young which is why so many "how do I deal with the nipping and biting?" along with other behavioral questions come up on this forum as well as many other lists.

I can speak with some authority on the subject from several perspectives. 1) I do own a girl that was bought from such a breeder. She is the apple of her daddy's eye and he is to her, but we would not purchase from them again. 2) Many years of being on lists where the same discussion comes up over and over and over again and the same lack of standards (regardless of what care they take with their horses) continue to apply time after time after time in the the breeding of their dogs. 3) I'm the one inundated with the results of their indiscriminatory placings.

I'm not sure what a "large minority" means, besides a contradiction in terms, but one thing I can say for sure is I'm tired of cleaning up after them and their lack of responsibility, something I rarely have to do with a show breeder.

Debbie

fogebotom · 08-15-2007, 07:23 AM

First off-no bashing horse people--I am one, remember me saying that? I started out in QH, then spent years in Appaloosa's. We now have drafts. Just as each horse breed has a different style of person, so do dog breeds. What is deemed acceptable in beagles, a lot of us on here don't think is acceptable in corgis. Same in my horses-draft people are way different then stock horse people. I just wish that they would apply the same care and concern for the health of their horses to their dogs. Then again, QH people are still openly breeding HyPP horses because they look good. Go figure that those people would give a rat's a** about their dog's health.

Next--I don't think anything that the one gentleman did to you was unacceptable. I do not let puppy people pick-I do it. I have spent hours and weeks and even months with these puppies. Are you then saying that you who have meet the puppies for an hour or so, have a better idea of which one is best suited to you? Questionnaire's are a tool to help match the puppy as well as multiple visits and chat via phone and email. I temperment test and make sure that all known health issues are discussed. I require per statements in my questionnaire and on my contract, that pets are
altered, no if's and's or but's. And yes, I have turned people down. That's my right.

I am slightly offended.

Lastly, do some work in rescue--that'll change your mind. Debbie and Peggy have done it for years and it can be heartbreaking. I truely commend them for their work and I don't know how they keep doing it, other then for the love of the dogs. My last rescue was a senior dog abandoned by is owners in the country. Beautiful black headed tri male. BLIND from PRA--a preventable problem if his breeder had tested the parents. How about that one--get a dog home and in a year it's blind? Anyway, Jack lived with me for a year. He was a wonderful dog and some very special angels-Pete and Peter adopted him. But I still grind my teeth thinking about the irresponsiblity of the person who produced Jack.

Again, all I hope for you is the best, no ill will, just giving you my first hand, horrible experience that changed my life.

You will do what you will, but becareful what you ask for.

Cindy, the crew and the 6 pack.

glencorgi · 08-15-2007, 12:31 PM

Cindy,

Please note I did qualify the niche of horse people about whom I have issues. And we both know some of the same names

who come from horse backgrounds and are "dabbling" in dogs now, and we both know they just don't get it and never will.

Debbie

pmavrich · 08-15-2007, 01:52 PM

Thanks for the slam Peggy ...

I will work on keeping my breeding opinions to myself from now on, since I do not breed Corgi's and only own two dogs as pets.

fogebotom · 08-15-2007, 02:02 PM

No offense taken at all there--I know exactly who persons are ;0)
And no, they will never change-well spots might turn to stripes but the underlying beast won't.

Cindy and the crew

Quote:

Originally Posted by glencorgi

Cindy,

Please note I did qualify the niche of horse people about whom I have issues. And we both know some of the same names

who come from horse backgrounds and are "dabbling" in dogs now, and we both know they just don't get it and never will.

Debbie

fogebotom · 08-15-2007, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

And conversely, a large minority of the horse fraternity who also own a Corgi would love their Corgis just as we do and go to similar lengths of care and attention as they give their horses.

I do agree there, there are many who are just wonderful pet owners. As long as they stay pet owners, that is.

Cindy and the crew

Peggy · 08-15-2007, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pmavrich

Thanks for the slam Peggy ...

I will work on keeping my breeding opinions to myself from now on, since I do not breed Corgi's and only own two dogs as pets.

What slam? I did not intend to "slam" you.

Peggy (who will be out of town and off line till Mon.)

kassie · 08-15-2007, 05:52 PM

OK, I guess I opened a bit of a can of worms! Let me say a few things though, so you all will know about us. This is our first trip to corgi land, and we're in love, and believe me we have nothing but the deepest respect for the rescue people, we know people who do rescue work in non breed specific rescue and have done some emergency fostering before.
We lost, in this past year our two 16 year old mixed breeds who were littermates. One had chronic pancreatitis, but through excellent vet care way outlived her predictions and remained happy with very rare flare ups right to the end. Her brother developed cushings disease at 14 and again with good care stayed awfully healthy up to the end. That was when our Maeve came into our life. She is immensely intuitive and always seemed to know which one was up for some play and which one she should help with. As doggie dimentia became problematic for our male she took care of him, leading him through the house and in and out of our fenced area. She is amazing. She has had beginning obedience, is now taking some private lessons and may do some agility with her if it seems like a good fit after her private lessons. Although she didn't get enough socialization before we got her, we are working on that and she goes to work with me from time to time (I work with adults with disabilities) and is much loved there. I would like to do CGC eventually when she is old enough.

We would never abandon any dog, for any reason, and even if there were a problem with any dog we would only know that there was a reason for our lives to intersect and love that dog at that point in time. I guess that's my soap box.

Again thanks to all and I look forward to learning much from all of you about these wonderful dogs!

glencorgi · 08-16-2007, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kassie

We are getting a puppy from someone who is not a breeder per se. She has a farm and 1 dog that has had a couple of litters. Friends have some of her former pups and they are delightful and smart. They are not registered, but we just want a pet and will spay asap.

Yes, she IS a "breeder" per se.

Quote:

Any advice out there?

None that will matter, be listened to, or make a difference. Your mind is made up and the decision made. We'll just be here to answer the questions as the problems come up and clean up after the fact.

As far as the "new" trend of letting puppies go at 7 weeks that Michael mentioned; everything old is new again. Developmentally, 7 weeks is the human imprinting period and it is thought that it is a prime bonding time with humans. Some of the sporting breeds that their dogs will go on to field work send pups home at that age. I believe that is probably the reasoning behind the CWCCA's COE's age limit of a puppy being a minimum of 7 weeks before it goes home. Hard core performance enthusiasts (agility people for one) will also try to get their new puppies at the 7 week mark. One case I know of who did get their new Pem potential agility star at that age, well it kinda backfired on her.

Debbie

08-15-2007, 01:52 PM	#20 (permalink)
pmavrich Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Lake Orion, MI Posts: 129 Images: 16	Thanks for the slam Peggy ... I will work on keeping my breeding opinions to myself from now on, since I do not breed Corgi's and only own two dogs as pets. __________________ Patty Mom to Molsen & Miller

08-15-2007, 05:52 PM	#24 (permalink)
kassie Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Indiana Posts: 21 Images: 3	I promise to be a good corgi caretaker! OK, I guess I opened a bit of a can of worms! Let me say a few things though, so you all will know about us. This is our first trip to corgi land, and we're in love, and believe me we have nothing but the deepest respect for the rescue people, we know people who do rescue work in non breed specific rescue and have done some emergency fostering before. We lost, in this past year our two 16 year old mixed breeds who were littermates. One had chronic pancreatitis, but through excellent vet care way outlived her predictions and remained happy with very rare flare ups right to the end. Her brother developed cushings disease at 14 and again with good care stayed awfully healthy up to the end. That was when our Maeve came into our life. She is immensely intuitive and always seemed to know which one was up for some play and which one she should help with. As doggie dimentia became problematic for our male she took care of him, leading him through the house and in and out of our fenced area. She is amazing. She has had beginning obedience, is now taking some private lessons and may do some agility with her if it seems like a good fit after her private lessons. Although she didn't get enough socialization before we got her, we are working on that and she goes to work with me from time to time (I work with adults with disabilities) and is much loved there. I would like to do CGC eventually when she is old enough. We would never abandon any dog, for any reason, and even if there were a problem with any dog we would only know that there was a reason for our lives to intersect and love that dog at that point in time. I guess that's my soap box. Again thanks to all and I look forward to learning much from all of you about these wonderful dogs!

08-14-2007, 06:19 PM	#16 (permalink)
Michael Romanos Global Moderator Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Silverstream (near Wellington, the capital of NZ) Posts: 4,896 Images: 2	This whole discussion is a little out of kilter because a large minority of regular dog breeders including Corgi breeders are not the finely crafted experts and illustrious breeders and great communicators as some Go Corgi members would have us believing. And conversely, a large minority of the horse fraternity who also own a Corgi would love their Corgis just as we do and go to similar lengths of care and attention as they give their horses.

08-14-2007, 09:17 PM	#17 (permalink)
glencorgi Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Piedmont Triad, NC Posts: 2,417 Images: 3	Okay, this is not a soapbox, instead more of a vent. The majority of the owner turn-in rescues I get are NOT pet shop impulse purchases rather they come from horsey breeders with the corgis as horse accessory mentality and selling to anyone who has the $ on the day. Furthermore, once that sale is made that's it, as far as support or questions or if the owners can't keep or don't want the corgi anymore, owners are on their own and when the corgi reaches throwaway status - then it is up to anyone but them to take care of the problem. In general, horsey breeders DO NOT apply the same standards and ethics they do in their horse breedings. I don't get why they don't, but that's just the way it is. One would think that things like structural evaluations, soundness, movement and such would matter in the dogs or that there would be a better understanding of such - I've yet to meet anyone from the horse world attempting to dabble in dogs who gets it. Puppy alley at the big horse shows are filled with the barn accessory breeds and mixes thereof. Puppies for sale so they'll have extra pocket cash to spend at the show. Just had a request on the rescue list looking for an intact female corgi to breed to their Australian shepherd male. All the puppies would be destined for horse homes. And for the record I happen to personally know at least one of the PWCCA members in Michigan (the PWCCA does NOT register breeders, btw). Does she screen homes? YES Does she ask questions and match puppies to appropriate homes? YES Is she upfront about things like umbilical hernias and require spay and neuter on pets? YES Would you have been lucky to get one of her wonderful puppies - YES This is a woman who goes above and beyond with any and every puppy she brings into this world. (I also know owners of her corgis and the corgis themselves.) It is not unusual for horsey breeders to let their puppies go way too young which is why so many "how do I deal with the nipping and biting?" along with other behavioral questions come up on this forum as well as many other lists. I can speak with some authority on the subject from several perspectives. 1) I do own a girl that was bought from such a breeder. She is the apple of her daddy's eye and he is to her, but we would not purchase from them again. 2) Many years of being on lists where the same discussion comes up over and over and over again and the same lack of standards (regardless of what care they take with their horses) continue to apply time after time after time in the the breeding of their dogs. 3) I'm the one inundated with the results of their indiscriminatory placings. I'm not sure what a "large minority" means, besides a contradiction in terms, but one thing I can say for sure is I'm tired of cleaning up after them and their lack of responsibility, something I rarely have to do with a show breeder. Debbie

08-15-2007, 07:23 AM	#18 (permalink)
fogebotom Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Iowa Posts: 239 Images: 3	First off-no bashing horse people--I am one, remember me saying that? I started out in QH, then spent years in Appaloosa's. We now have drafts. Just as each horse breed has a different style of person, so do dog breeds. What is deemed acceptable in beagles, a lot of us on here don't think is acceptable in corgis. Same in my horses-draft people are way different then stock horse people. I just wish that they would apply the same care and concern for the health of their horses to their dogs. Then again, QH people are still openly breeding HyPP horses because they look good. Go figure that those people would give a rat's a** about their dog's health. Next--I don't think anything that the one gentleman did to you was unacceptable. I do not let puppy people pick-I do it. I have spent hours and weeks and even months with these puppies. Are you then saying that you who have meet the puppies for an hour or so, have a better idea of which one is best suited to you? Questionnaire's are a tool to help match the puppy as well as multiple visits and chat via phone and email. I temperment test and make sure that all known health issues are discussed. I require per statements in my questionnaire and on my contract, that pets are altered, no if's and's or but's. And yes, I have turned people down. That's my right. I am slightly offended. Lastly, do some work in rescue--that'll change your mind. Debbie and Peggy have done it for years and it can be heartbreaking. I truely commend them for their work and I don't know how they keep doing it, other then for the love of the dogs. My last rescue was a senior dog abandoned by is owners in the country. Beautiful black headed tri male. BLIND from PRA--a preventable problem if his breeder had tested the parents. How about that one--get a dog home and in a year it's blind? Anyway, Jack lived with me for a year. He was a wonderful dog and some very special angels-Pete and Peter adopted him. But I still grind my teeth thinking about the irresponsiblity of the person who produced Jack. Again, all I hope for you is the best, no ill will, just giving you my first hand, horrible experience that changed my life. You will do what you will, but becareful what you ask for. Cindy, the crew and the 6 pack.

08-15-2007, 12:31 PM	#19 (permalink)
glencorgi Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Piedmont Triad, NC Posts: 2,417 Images: 3	Cindy, Please note I did qualify the niche of horse people about whom I have issues. And we both know some of the same names who come from horse backgrounds and are "dabbling" in dogs now, and we both know they just don't get it and never will. Debbie

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