First Puppy Tooth Gone

[MyPemCharlie]

Originally Posted by Peggy

Ok, despide your vet's advice, I'd be looking into getting those pulled. The adult teeth are in quite a bit and if the puppy teeth aren't loose I'd be getting worried.

His bottom canines are in too far. If you remove the puppy canines they might move into the place where they belong. I'd be taking out the bottom puppy canines at the very least.

Peggy

That's what I thought, but didn't know if I was just worrying too much.

Good news! His upper canine came out this morning while we were playing in the back yard. It did have a little over 1/4 inch of undisolved root though. Ouch! That had to hurt...

I am still concerned about the lowers since the adult teeth look "base narrow". My plan is to wait out the weekend and see if they come out, and call the vet on Monday if they are still there.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by MyPemCharlie

Good news! His upper canine came out this morning while we were playing in the back yard. It did have a little over 1/4 inch of undisolved root though. Ouch! That had to hurt...

Great!!

I am still concerned about the lowers since the adult teeth look "base narrow". My plan is to wait out the weekend and see if they come out, and call the vet on Monday if they are still there.

Sounds like a good plan.

Peggy

[MyPemCharlie]

Update: Charlie's lower baby canines are still not loose, and the adult teeth are getting bigger everyday. We are going to the vet Monday to have them pulled. Since he'll be 6 months old next Wednesday, I'm going to have him neutered at the same time instead of having to put him under anethesia two separate times.

[Vannette]

Good idea....that way he won't really know here he hurts. LOL Joking aside. Perfect timing.

[MyPemCharlie]

Yes, he'll probably be sore from "tip to tail" on Monday.

I had wanted to have him neutered at about 12-14 months because of the new studies which discuss the higher rates of cancer, increased chance of hip displasia, increased risk of adverse reaction to immunizations and a few other risks, which have now been linked to having male dogs neutered before adulthood.

However, I was not expecting to have him put under anethesia (for his teeth). So now I've had to weigh the risks of neutering before adulthood versus the risk of having him put under anethesia now, and again in 6-8 months.

Not an easy decision.

Link to article on risks/benefits of early spay/neuter:
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongT...uterInDogs.pdf

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by MyPemCharlie

Update: Charlie's lower baby canines are still not loose, and the adult teeth are getting bigger everyday. We are going to the vet Monday to have them pulled. Since he'll be 6 months old next Wednesday, I'm going to have him neutered at the same time instead of having to put him under anethesia two separate times.

I think that's a good idea. And personally, I think the risks of neutering him now are not as great as you are thinking. Lots of dogs have been neutered at the age of 6 mos and have been just fine.

I'm not sure you can link all the things in the study to neutering before a year old. I think that the increased preservatives in food, over vaccinating, ect. are some things to consider too.

In this case we know the teeth are causing a problem. Better to do it all now and get it done and have him recover.

I'll be thinking good thoughts for him! (and you!)

Peggy

[MyPemCharlie]

Originally Posted by Peggy

I think that's a good idea. And personally, I think the risks of neutering him now are not as great as you are thinking. Lots of dogs have been neutered at the age of 6 mos and have been just fine.

I'm not sure you can link all the things in the study to neutering before a year old. I think that the increased preservatives in food, over vaccinating, ect. are some things to consider too.

In this case we know the teeth are causing a problem. Better to do it all now and get it done and have him recover.

I'll be thinking good thoughts for him! (and you!)

Peggy

Thank you for the good thoughts. I am having some second thoughts though on neutering this early. While you are correct that other sources (preservatives, vaccinations, etc) can cause health problems, it is known that testosterone (and estrogen) hormones build bone density from teen years though adulthood. So it makes sense to me that early neutering could be linked to bone cancer and hip displasia.

This may be less of a problem in smaller dogs, but I waited until about one year with my last dog on his breeder's advice, to let him build the bone mass and reduce the chances of displasia. A lot of large dog and sporting dog breeders recommend waiting at least 12 months. It may be exteme, but I would compare puppy spay/neuter to the thought of someone desexing their undeveloped child at 12 years old and trying to say there are health benefits to cutting off their hormones before the child has developed.

Spaying and neutering is widely recommended in the US because of the hundreds of thousands of idiots who let there animals roam free and created a pet overpopulation problem (like my neighbor with the min poodle), not because it's good or healthy for the animal to be castrated. If everyone were responsible and kept their pets contained, their would be much less of a push for spay/neuter before the dog has fully developed.

Having said that, I do believe that spay/neuter is a socially responsible thing to do in general (due to the population problem). My feeling though is that it should happen in early adulthood, not in puppyhood as veterinarians currently recommend (as long as the dog is responsibly owned).

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by MyPemCharlie

Thank you for the good thoughts. I am having some second thoughts though on neutering this early. While you are correct that other sources (preservatives, vaccinations, etc) can cause health problems, it is known that testosterone (and estrogen) hormones build bone density from teen years though adulthood. So it makes sense to me that early neutering could be linked to bone cancer and hip displasia.

This may be less of a problem in smaller dogs, but I waited until about one year with my last dog on his breeder's advice, to let him build the bone mass and reduce the chances of displasia. A lot of large dog and sporting dog breeders recommend waiting at least 12 months. It may be exteme, but I would compare puppy spay/neuter to the thought of someone desexing their undeveloped child at 12 years old and trying to say there are health benefits to cutting off their hormones before the child has developed.

Spaying and neutering is widely recommended in the US because of the hundreds of thousands of idiots who let there animals roam free and created a pet overpopulation problem (like my neighbor with the min poodle), not because it's good or healthy for the animal to be castrated. If everyone were responsible and kept their pets contained, their would be much less of a push for spay/neuter before the dog has fully developed.

Having said that, I do believe that spay/neuter is a socially responsible thing to do in general (due to the population problem). My feeling though is that it should happen in early adulthood, not in puppyhood as veterinarians currently recommend (as long as the dog is responsibly owned).

I understand and respect your views. I just have a different opinion. My experince is that it hasn't changed the corgis I had neutered before 6 mos. of age. Both if them (one neutered at 4 mos and one at 5 mos.) were just as big as their brothers. No change in leg lenght or bone density.

I recommend, well actually require, that my pet puppy buyers spay/neuter at 6 mos. Depending on the person I would be willing to listen to a different point of view. But from what I've seen so far I've not seen the differences mentioned in the studies. (And I know of breeders who s/n their puppies before 12 weeks of age and before they go to their new homes. Again, not seeing an differnce in them and intact littermates.)

JMO.
Peggy

[Chip's Mom]

Chip's baby canines didn't fall out either so they were pulled when he was neutered at 6 months and he did fine. Try not to worry. They do come out easily as there is hardly any root.

[MyPemCharlie]

Originally Posted by Peggy

I understand and respect your views. I just have a different opinion. My experince is that it hasn't changed the corgis I had neutered before 6 mos. of age. Both if them (one neutered at 4 mos and one at 5 mos.) were just as big as their brothers. No change in leg lenght or bone density.

I recommend, well actually require, that my pet puppy buyers spay/neuter at 6 mos. Depending on the person I would be willing to listen to a different point of view. But from what I've seen so far I've not seen the differences mentioned in the studies. (And I know of breeders who s/n their puppies before 12 weeks of age and before they go to their new homes. Again, not seeing an differnce in them and intact littermates.)

JMO.
Peggy

If I were a breeder, I would likely have the same spay/neuter agreement. The interest there is still to try to ensure that pet-quality dogs don't reproduce, not because there are health benefits to s/n at a young age. For every responsible pet owner I know, I can point to 3 owners who are not so responsible. Of course of 4 potential pet owners, all 4 will tell you that they will be responsible, and as a breeder (and rescuer), you know that in actuality they may or may not be as responsible as they claim.

As far as health problems, the majority dogs will live their lives without many serious issues until more common older age problems set in (regardless of s/n age). Use bone cancer as an example (but the example could be hip displasia, or hormonal skin disease, or torn ligaments, or any problem with statisically higher risks from early (before one year) spay/neuter.) Let's say that 3% of all dogs will get bone cancer (3% is just a "number" as I couldn't find actually percentage rates of cancer across all breeds, the number in rotties is 12.7% so 3% is probably low). However, say that only 2% of dogs not spayed/neutered until one year get cancer, but 5.5% of dogs who are spayed/neutered before one year get cancer, resulting in the avg of 3% across all dogs. So even with early spay/neuter, your own dog still has a 94.5% chance of being perfectly healthy and not getting cancer. This example goes to support your point of not observing any differences in dogs which have be s/n'd at 4, 5 or 6 months.

So, while I can and do support your point about spay/neuter in general, my support is only because of the large number of people who will let their intact dogs out to roam and add to the overpopulation problem. Better to have a statistically higher increase of health problems in specific dogs due to early neutering, than to have more and more and more unwanted animals every year.

Charlie is under my nose (constantly supervised) almost 24 hours a day. When I do leave to buy groceries or what-not for a few hours a week, he is inside in his kennel. Since the chances of him contributing to the unwanted puppy pool are virtually zero, I do have a strong preference to wait until he is a year to give him the absolute best odds of a long healthy life as possible. I know it sounds hypocritical, but the differences in my own opinion have to do with individual responsibility versus the responsibility taken by the "public-at-large".

A bit off topic: Looks like the "Animal Advisory Commission" in my city is making some headway with the City Council to pass an ordinance for mandatory spay/neuter of every animal at 6 months of age, so there may not be a choice in the future. Breeders would have to pay a license fee per intact dog and an additional fee per litter produced.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by MyPemCharlie

If I were a breeder, I would likely have the same spay/neuter agreement. The interest there is still to try to ensure that pet-quality dogs don't reproduce, not because there are health benefits to s/n at a young age.

Yes, you're right there. Still I don't recommend things that would be harmful to my dogs. When I place a puppy, I still consider it "my puppy" and am concerned about it's welfare. I would not place a puppy with someone I felt would do something to harm the dog o