Selling Price

[corgimom]

deleted....

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by corgimom

Deb,

I guess I will direct this to you, but what do you consider a reasonable (average) cost of a puppy that is not show quality?

I have talked to breeders who ranged from $450 to $900 and they all did the same genetic testing. Do you find the $900 range a lot for a pet quality puppy and should a buyer be more aware of one that is only in the $400 range compared to a higher priced one, or is this just all about money for the breeder?

Some of the price variable does have to do with which part of the country one is located, but you are quoting the average range today, although I'm not hearing of many $450 puppies today from what would be the more reputable sources. Might be though, without knowing more specifics I wouldn't want to make a definitive call one way or the other. In that same vein, some of the $900 puppies could be all about money for the breeder.

I was thinking that maybe someone who charges $800 to $900 may anticipate more vet bills , like sees the vet more often, or maybe she is paying more for a stud service compared to someone who may be breeding the sire and dam that they already own themselves or maybe because the breeder anticipates a smaller sized litter and wants to re-coup her money. Just wanted thoughts on this.

For an $800 - $900 puppy this is what I would expect for the investment. I would expect titled parents or at least on their way to titles, all health clearances done on both and hopefully the same on generations back. I have a friend in Michigan who is planning litters this summer. Her girls have passed OFA, clear eyes, hearts clear, thyroids checked and a couple of other tests she mentioned. I would expect someone who knows the breed and is a student of the breed and most importantly, I would expect to invest in an extended member of my family - someone to be there for me for any questions or problems that might arise - someone I could go to at any time to talk about my puppy.

For real expenses breeders have in a litter, someone on Corgi-L did a breeding diary and included all expenses they incurred every step of the way.
Show expenses to gain a championship title on their girl, hip x-rays, and other health checks. It was very interesting and enlightening to watch the dollars add up.

Stud fees (which can run the $800-$900 price of a puppy easily) Additional expenses here might include shipping the female to the stud owner for the breeding and then being returned home. Artificial insemination is now routinely done and these require vet visits for things like progesterone testing so they make sure they hit on the right day
Fresh chilled semen requires stud dog owner to go to vet's for a collection, packaging and shipping to the waiting b*tch owner and/or her vet and the insemination is done at vet's office.
Frozen semen - from maybe a late great stud dog, testing of semen for viability is needed and then the shipping to the vet's for the actual insemination.

Even if someone is using a stud dog they have on site, it may be a dog they imported just for their lines which can be expensive. Showing expenses as well as health testing on him add up.

After the breeding is done, then it is a wait and see if she took. Ultrasounds are common now to check and as a pregnancy draws towards an end; x-rays are done for a count of puppies, sometimes get an idea of size as well. A dam with 3 or 4 large puppies can be as big as one with 6 to 8 smaller puppies. Large puppies more than likely will require a c-section.

There is a service based out of Colorado that provides a 24 x 7 monitoring of a pregnant b*tch, it is done by phone lines and a number of breeders employ it especially if they have lost a b*tch in whelp in the past.

C-sections are also a factor. While one hopes it won't be necessary, there is always the chance - a puppy gets stuck or breech birth or any number of things that can go wrong can require one.

After the puppies arrive - and after the first 48 hours when one can take a small breath that they all survive (On another list a litter someone was waiting on to be born from which she was planning to get a puppy - all 3 puppies died within 24 hours of being born. A necropsy is being performed to see if they can determine the cause.) there are dew claws (tails in PWC's), shots, dewormings to be done.
Extra food once the puppies are weaned.
Vet visits for wellness checks, some breeders check eyes, some breeders do pediatric spay/neuters

Then there is the time factor - lots of cleaning, sanitizing and laundry that is done whenever there is a litter about. (Not that this is factored into puppy price, but there is so much that does cost that isn't factored in as well.)

A rule of thumb is to have $1,200 -$1,500 in reserve just to cover the expenses that might come up during the whelping.

Also, when I was first looking for a puppy, one breeder said she was willing to sell a particular puppy to me, but she wanted to be co-owner and still wanted to be able to breed her; this situation was not for me, and I was wondering how often does that happen and are there many people willing to do that?

Did she want to show her as well? or only wanted to breed her? It isn't all that uncommon for breeders with a promising puppy they'd like to be shown (and no show home for it) and perhaps have a litter from in the future to offer such an arrangement to "pet" home. This arrangement can work, but a lot depends on how in sympatico both parties are. My experience and observations with these type of arrangements is that they are usually more trouble than they are worth, although some have worked out wonderfully. Even with show homes, co-ownerships are not uncommon. IF it was only because she wanted a litter later on, then that is one I would have walked away from.

It is really hard to make black and white calls sometimes. An offer from one breeder could be completely legitimate, totally ethical and provide a wonderful experience and friendship. The same type offer from another breeder could be an absolute nightmare and take you for a really bad ride.

A website was recently posted to the list which almost said all the right things. On the surface it would appear to be a responsible breeder, however, with some of the things that were left out and some of the wording - flags were raised with me.

Not sure if I answered your question(s) or not, $800 or $900 for a "pet" puppy - well you are getting all the care and background put into it that is going into any show potential puppy out of the same litter; sometimes it definitely might be a small price to pay for such a wonderful investment, other times, it might be a complete rip off. The same could be said of the $450 puppy. Gut instinct helps a lot sometimes. Anytime anyone has any questions about specifics, I'll be happy to answer best I can via the private message - best not to do them in a public forum.

Debbie

[corgimom]

Thanks Debbie,

That was a lot of helpful information I will tuck away for future use. I
didn't realize all the costs involved in breeding a dog, during pregnancy,
and afterwards.

As for the breeder that wanted to be co-owner, I am not absolutely
sure, but I thought it was only to breed this dog in the future. I just had
a bad feeling about that situation and I could not have imagined
risking "my pet's" health so she could breed it. Anyway, that breeder
was a little overboard on the "mother hen" stuff. I understand that
a good breeder should be there for us and should care about the puppies,
but I just thought this one would have been looking over my shoulder
a bit too much - it just didn't feel right for me, although, I am sure she
was a great breeder. Thanks for answering all the questions.

Linda

[Michael Romanos]

Linda - Co-ownerships are common among leading breeders. It is often done so that the breeder can retain some control on the pups they sell in respect to breeding from them. There might be some superficial benefit to the breeder if the co-owned dog has their name on a certificate or in published material as being an owner eg competitors in conformation or at other dog sports.
My Taylor was a co-owned dog until I realised there was no benefit in it for me or Taylor eg no shared costs, and because the co-owner was on the executive of the NZ Kennel Club, Taylor could not be shown at NZKC-organised conformation shows eg the National Show.

Quality Corgis with registered pedigree papers would cost $600 - $800 in NZ and Corgis without registered pedigree papers or have obvious faults for showing purposes, would come in at around $300-$400. These figures are expressed in NZ dollars - the USA equivalent of $300 is $180 and $800 is $480

[corgimom]

Debbie,

My mother in law is currently looking for a Boston Terrier, and I got some
breeders names for her; however, I found a pretty impressive web site here
in Wisconsin from a breeder who breeds Bostons - $900.

I had emailed them to see if they do any genetic testing and they DON"T!
I thought that was unreal for the price they were charging - they do have
on their website that they feed them some yogurt every day, give them lots
of exercise and good quality food and therefore have healthy Bostons - well,
I guess then that is all worth the $900 - ha.

I just thought I would bring this up since I had asked you what you should
expect for a $900 puppy - I can see how someone would fall for a dog like this
by looking at his web site, if one didn't know better.

Linda

[glencorgi]

Linda,

You are developing an eye! Good for you!

Debbie

[Michael Romanos]

Linda - I think you have mistakenly lumped the going price for Corgis in the USA with other breeds. Sometimes there is a correlation and sometimes there is absolutely none. Prices of pups can also relate to rarity,importation (ie of parent/s), possible purpose and even size of dog (a Great Dane may very well cost more than a Corgi or a Boston Terrier through sheer size - which can also relate to other higher expenses eg feeding).

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

Linda - I think you have mistakenly lumped the going price for Corgis in the USA with other breeds.

No Linda, you didn't - you saw right through the website. Smaller breeds - the toys and smaller what are considered non-sporting breeds here - command higher prices than many of the large breeds. Bostons are popular small breeds, are in demand, and the market bears the high prices they can bring. Maltese and or Pugs for example can run $1,000 for a pet puppy. With these breeds, besides the demand for them, smaller litters, routine c-sections contribute to the pricing also. It is not uncommon at all here for large breed puppies to cost less than toy breed puppies.

Debbie

[corgimom]

Michael,

I wasn't lumping groups of dogs together at all - I was just making a point after what Deb had said one should get when they pay $900 for a puppy. We were talking about Corgis, but in general, $900 is a lot of money for a dog where the sire and dam have not been tested for anything. This Boston breeder did no genetic testing on the parents, yet made a point to mention on their web site that their dogs get a tablespoon of yogurt each day along with great food and exercise which is why the dogs were healthy - and I thought that was ridiculous to be charging that kind of money with no checks on eyes and hips at least or whatever else may be a health factor for a Boston.

I was not comparing Bostons to Corgis, just making a general observation.

Linda

[Michael Romanos]

I think my point is something that I have said before: often there is no good reason, or comparative, for the going price of dogs as per their breed nor the price that individual people place on the dogs they are selling. I must say that there is little testing of pups carried out in NZ for any of the breeds apart from those breeds with a very high occurance of genetical problems.

My neice paid NZ$1350 for the Bloodhound pup they got - that price because of the rarity of the breed in NZ and because the breed are large size dogs. You can buy a top quality Corgi here for NZ$600 to $800.

[corgimom]

Today in the Classifieds in our paper there was an ad for Pembrokes for sale
for $500 - it said Health guaranteed - I rarely ever see Corgis for sale
in the classifieds. I was so tempted to call and get details.

linda

[Michael Romanos]

That's the way it is very often done in NZ - selling through the newspapers.

[glencorgi]

Linda,

If you're up to it - give them a call and see what the health "guarantee" covers and how long it is.

Some I've seen are 3 days. Some I've seen do a life-time type thing provided you feed the food they recommend and use the supplements they recommend and coincidentally happen to sell. Be another piece of educational material to share.

Debbie

[Chip's Mom]

Linda:

There is an ad in the local paper for Corgi's at $400.00. This is rare to see Corgi's advertised in this newspaper but there was another ad about 5 - 6 months ago so I have wondered if it was the same people. I have the number so I may call today. I will not go look though as I am thinking maybe a rescue when Chip is older and I have a very soft heart.

[corgimom]

I may just call today - with Caller ID, I am a bit hesitant, but I am dying to know how old they are and what she thinks is a "health guarantee"

At least it didn't say "raised underfoot", that statement always bugs
me.

Linda