First "Period"

[rme147]

I have a female Corgi who is 4 1/2 months old and we plan to breed her with our male corgi (yes from different families) but he is the same age and not interested quite yet. However, We have an older male Doxin (who is fixed) but I catch him trying to hump her more than I'd like to see. Is she already going into heat? I know that puppies need to be at least a year old, which is our plan (we've bread boxers- so we know about breeding) but I feel bad like our puppy is being 'violated'... is it hurting her? I've been watching closely and keeping them seperated as much as I can, but is it bad for her? Like I said, Doxie is fixed, but I just want to know if she is suffering.

[glencorgi]

First, IF you are familiar with breeding then you know bitches have seasons, not periods.

Originally Posted by rme147

I have a female Corgi who is 4 1/2 months old and we plan to breed her with our male corgi (yes from different families) but he is the same age and not interested quite yet.

It is doubtful she is coming in this early and so young. Just because they are from different "families" (I'm guessing both are highly out crossed, no lines to speak of) doesn't mean they are complementary to each other either genotype or in phenotype.

However, We have an older male Doxin (who is fixed) but I catch him trying to hump her more than I'd like to see. Is she already going into heat?

As I said, I would doubt she's coming in this young. With Pembrokes six months can be early for them to come in, sometimes it is closer to 9 months before their first season. She may have a UTI which can cause males to be interested. It may be that Doxin is showing her who is the dominant one.

I know that puppies need to be at least a year old, which is our plan

IF you are breeding responsibly, then waiting until they are two years of age is more in line. That way you can have their health clearances all done. Eyes, hips, vWD, and there is a new test coming out soon for DM - ALL health concerns in Pembrokes.

(we've bread boxers- so we know about breeding)

Bread comes in a loaf, I think you meant bred.

but I feel bad like our puppy is being 'violated'... is it hurting her? I've been watching closely and keeping them seperated as much as I can, but is it bad for her? Like I said, Doxie is fixed, but I just want to know if she is suffering.

As I said, she may have a UTI which is causing him to be interested in her, it might be that he is just displaying dominance over her. Does she try to tell him off when she's had enough? I'd suggest having her checked out by your vet. If his attentions are bothering you now, are you going to be able to handle a real tie?

Debbie

[MyPemCharlie]

Your female is probably not going into heat this young. Your male is probably too young to be producing testosterone at the same age. Your male neutered dog is most likely just showing dominance behavior.

If you plan to breed, please read and follow the Pembroke Welsh Corgi Club's breeder Code of Ethics. This would include not breeding the dogs until they are at least two years old and can have the mimimum recommended health tests performed by a vet. The code of ethics says not to breed before one year, but you cannot get the health tests done until two years. There are many other considerations to be an ethical breeder, but at a very minimum you would want to ensure that your dogs don't have a high risk passing on genetic health problems.

Code of Ethics link:
Pembroke Welsh Corgi Club of America CODE OF ETHICS

[MyPemCharlie]

Originally Posted by glencorgi

Bread comes in a loaf, I think you meant bred.

Debbie

I was going to ask if you meant you had "bread boxes" or if you had "bred boxers".

Sorry rme if we are making fun of your innocent typo. Hopefully you can laugh with us. I am certainly in need of some humor today and trying to find it where I can.

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by MyPemCharlie

I am certainly in need of some humor today and trying to find it where I can.

I hope Desta isn't having a bad day Chris.

Debbie

[MyPemCharlie]

Desta is still fairly lifeless and sleeping most of the time. She gets animated for a few minutes only a couple times a day. I think she may be a little constipated from having to limit her exercise so severely. I put her on a long training line and sat in the porch swing for 3 hours this morning until she finally pooped, while Charlie "slept in". By the time I got Charlie up, it was too hot to take him for a walk. So I'm probably just a little "constipated" myself today too. LOL

[glencorgi]

Bless her heart - it is going through a lot right now, along with the rest of her little body. I'm glad to hear she's sleeping a lot - good for her. Even though I know it has you on pins and needles, I'm not sure which way is more stressful - having to keep one "down" that wants to play and go and get into everything or one like Desta. Either way, you just worry.

Debbie

[MyPemCharlie]

Yes well you've had rescues with heartworm, so you know how it is. Desta certainly hasn't had much of a life so far, being overbred and never getting any vet care. I can't imagine how stressful it must have been on her body when she was pregnant, then nursing, with foot-long worms growing in her heart. Now she gets a new home...and gets arsenic treatments. It's amazing that she is so sweet and trusting and she doesn't just give up on us humans.

Anyway we are getting off-topic here. Sorry RME.

[Michael Romanos]

I can't agree that a Corgi need wait til he/she is two years old in order to breed. This topic has come up before and i made extensive enquires among Corgi breeders and the general consenus is that depending on the female, her background and her upbringing, a Corgi may have pups as young as 14-16 months and certainly after she reaches 18 months. A more important issue is how many times and how close between having litters, a female is used for breeding.

RME 147 needs to read carefully about Corgi/dog breeding and talk directly to at least one experienced Corgi breeder (and if possible visit their kennels) to get a substantial picture of what is involved, what is expected as at least minimum requirements.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

I can't agree that a Corgi need wait til he/she is two years old in order to breed. This topic has come up before and i made extensive enquires among Corgi breeders and the general consenus is that depending on the female, her background and her upbringing, a Corgi may have pups as young as 14-16 months and certainly after she reaches 18 months. A more important issue is how many times and how close between having litters, a female is used for breeding.

RME 147 needs to read carefully about Corgi/dog breeding and talk directly to at least one experienced Corgi breeder (and if possible visit their kennels) to get a substantial picture of what is involved, what is expected as at least minimum requirements.

Just because they "can" have puppies at 14-16 mos. does not mean they should. Reputable breeders wait till they can get an OFA certification and that can't be done till 2 years of age.

Peggy

[Michael Romanos]

Peggy - your American certification and policing of breeding age is not worldwide and is probably not universally accepted or even by all or most breeders in the USA.

I spoke yesterday to Lesley Chalmer's kennel Maid, Karen and Karen said that Lesley would unlikely start a female Pem breeding before 16 months. So Lesley doesn't adhere to the "at least 2 years old " statememnt. Lesley currently is in the USA on conformation show judging duties. Lesley runs Merthyr Kennels in Christchurch, New Zealand.

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

Peggy - your American certification and policing of breeding age is not worldwide and is probably not universally accepted or even by all or most breeders in the USA.

It isn't "Peggy's" American certification and policing of breeding policy Michael, it is what one finds in the Code of Ethics of the PWCCA and CWCCA and their counterparts in other parts of the world. Quality Breeders do adhere to the standards set forth by their parent breed clubs. Membership in the club depends upon it. The CWCCA's code of ethics does not allow for breeding on a first heat cycle or before 18 months of age.

Being on the show lists for both corgi breeds as well an all breed conformation list, which ARE all three INTERNATIONAL in membership, there is more adherence to the two years of age rule of thumb than you are realizing. Being that you are not a breeder, never have been and do not travel in that sphere your lack of knowledge and experience shows.

The novice corgi breeder in this thread is in the US. IF he/she wants to build a credible reputation, then the standards and ethics he/she needs to follow are what is set forth by the PWCCA here. Otherwise, he/she will be thought of in the same vein as your Santa breeder or worse. Commercial breeders, back yard puppies for profit breeders, no they aren't following the parent clubs' codes of ethics.

I spoke yesterday to Lesley Chalmer's kennel Maid, Karen and Karen said that Lesley would unlikely start a female Pem breeding before 16 months. So Lesley doesn't adhere to the "at least 2 years old " statememnt. Lesley currently is in the USA on conformation show judging duties. Lesley runs Merthyr Kennels in Christchurch, New Zealand.

Moving to animal husbandry a bit, IF Lesley begins breeding a bitch at 16 months, then she is breeding most likely on its second season (see the reference to the CWCCA code of ethics). Even with the statement from Karen, there is a lot left out, questions not asked, nor answered. I'd venture a big leap of assumptions has been made.

Debbie

[LaRogue]

...your American certification and policing of breeding age is not worldwide...

True, but do you think it wise for a corgi, not fully grown herself, to have puppies siphoning off nutrients she needs for her own growth? It's pretty much accepted as fact that corgis are not fully mature until at least 2 years of age. I don't know anyone who disputes that.

...breeding age is not worldwide and is probably not universally accepted or even by all or most breeders in the USA.

I believe those who belong to AKC bred recognized clubs comply with the clubs breeding policies as a condition of membership.

You're arguing apples and oranges-reputable breeders vs money breeders. A reputable breeder will generally not breed a corgi under 2 years old, until growth is mostly finished and the hips can be certified.

Chris-I hoping Desta's sleeping so much means she is healing and on the road to recovery. Sending all of you good wishes and vibes!

[MyPemCharlie]

The dog can have a preliminary OFA test as young as 12 months, but cannot get an OFA certification number until 24 months. Obviously the dog is still growing and maturing and the hip status can change between one and two years of age. Even though the PWCCA code of ethics states not to breed any dog under one year, there is much more stress on not breeding any dog which has not gotten all the health clearances. For reputable breeders in the US, having an OFA certification number (at or after two years) is part of being responsible.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

Peggy - your American certification and policing of breeding age is not worldwide and is probably not universally accepted or even by all or most breeders in the USA.

Michael, the dog and potential breeder who started this thread are in the US. I'd venture to say that the majority of the readers on this forum are in the US also.

Breeding is not policed in the US. People can and do breed when they want. But reputable breeders wait till the dog is marture enough and get the health clearances. That IS an accepted practice in the US.

Even in other countries it's not an accepted practice to breed on a first heat cycle.

I spoke yesterday to Lesley Chalmer's kennel Maid, Karen and Karen said that Lesley would unlikely start a female Pem breeding before 16 months. So Lesley doesn't adhere to the "at least 2 years old " statememnt. Lesley currently is in the USA on conformation show judging duties. Lesley runs Merthyr Kennels in Christchurch, New Zealand.

I am well aware of Lesley Chalmers and where she is, and her kennel name. It's quite common among show people in the US.

Even though she breeds before age two she is NOT breeding on the first heat, which usually occurs in corgis between 6 and 8 mos of age. A dog that young is still a puppy herself.

Peggy