Hip Dysplasia

[glencorgi]

Since there are two thread kind of running on the same topic, I decided to try to combine them both.

As I said in Bailey's thread, HD (hip dysplasia) is polygenetic in its basis. More than one series of genes are involved, so it isn't as "simple" as a matter of dominant and recessive genes. Because of their short stature, even corgis with bad hips can be asymptomatic and never show a sign of pain. This is one reason that people will still say, HD isn't a problem in corgis, but unless they test - do the xrays, they never know whether they really have a problem or not. Kind of like an ostrich with their head in the sand. Even vets will follow this line which explains the answer Michael got when he inquired.

Corgis also compensate with other parts of their bodies. Fronts can often become overdeveloped as the dog puts most of the stress of movement on that portion of their body.

To repost the links Linda posted:
http://www.offa.org/

http://www.workingdogs.com/vchipdysplasia.htm

http://www.thepetcenter.com/xra/hd.html

Two young dogs on GC have come up with hip problems. Braam, I'm very sorry to hear about McFawny. She's only 10 months old and Bailey is 14 months so see it does happen and manifest itself in young dogs. As Deb/Jespah reported: It can be diagnosed as early as 7 weeks. Bunny hopping is one sign, although don't get in a panic, that alone is not necessarily enough to indicate a problem. Even corgis with good hips will do this from time to time.

I commend Braam on his program of getting her into condition for the surgery. Keeping her weight down and proper exercise - the swimming will be excellent therapy because of the low impact aerobics. I wouldn't recommend stairs or steep hill climbs, but steady moderately paced walks.

As for the responses Braam got, well the breeder did the typical "not in my lines" type response. Again, if they don't xray, they don't know and are in denial.

Hip replacements and/or HD corrective surgeries done in the US have had a very good success rate and given many a dog/corgi a high quality of life. Most important is to follow the post op directions to the letter. The cost of corrective surgery for the young Pug I mentioned in Bailey's thread was around $3000 US.

SAKC's reaction, typically registering/governing bodies don't like to get involved in these kinds of "disputes." I know AKC's reaction would be similar, Canadian KC would be pretty close as well.

As I said in Bailey's thread, there can be environmental/nurture contributing/causes of HD. I have to give it to the guy from the SAKC - he's good, very good. Essentially Braam, if you ever played a game of ball with Myff you caused her dysplasia. HOGWASH!!! Yes, over exercise or repetitive training/exercise before bones have solidified and growth plates have closed can cause damage. IF anyone remembers the TV show Dharma and Greg, you'll remember the tri Cardigan that was in the series. The original CWC was one that had been around for many years and made appearances in many movies and tv shows. He was replaced with a puppy and the breeder gave strict instructions to not do any jumping until he was older. One of the main parts the CWC played was to sit in a chair, jump down and follow the other dog out. The training for this scene required repetitive jumping down from the chair and the puppy's pasterns were broken down from the repetitive jumping training. IF you're hard training your corgi puppy for agility - repetitive jumping, weave poles, etc. then you are asking for structural trouble down the road. Long distance running and/or jogging on a daily basis with a puppy and you're asking for structural woes down the line. Hour long intense ball playing sessions on a daily basis could cause problems. 10 minute or so play sessions are not going to cause any real problems <imho>. Common sense goes a long way. You know I really doubt if the Welsh farmer put his corgi puppy up on a satin pillow until it was old enough and the bones were solidified before he sent it out to begin learning to do the work it was bred for. Corgi puppies did a lot of scrambling over rocks and logs and rough housing and chasing each other which does/did include quick stops and turns.

Debbie

[Dillydoodle]

Thank you for posting this information it is very helpful. Does this information basically apply for elbow dysplaisa as well? I wonder becuase that was what Dillon was misdiagnosed with initially...then premature bone plate closure, and finally laxity in the shoulder and finally seen by a corgi specialist who said, nope to all the above, said he may have had pano but now that the majority of growing is done, he is perfectly healthy, and has normal ,sound bone structure....
Emilie

[fido]

Debbie--you are a fount of information! We love your posts.

Question-you mentioned long distance jogging/running with a puppy is problematic. What is considered a long distance? Buddy (10 months) and I walk for 3-5 minutes, run for 1 minute for anywhere from 30-45 minutes, 2-3 days/week. And regular walks the other days at the kids pace for 30 or so minutes. Is this appropriate?

Also Michael mentioned in a post that hill training is a must for back leg muscle development. As we live in Houston, TX--where the land is quite flat--would treadmill incline exercise be helpful? and what incline would be appropriate? For humans, physical therapists suggest a 3% incline for strengthening the muscles which stabilize the knee. What are your thoughts given that steep inclines are not suggested? What is steep for a corgi? Buddy has been on the treadmill occasionally for about five minutes after my run on it. He enjoys it, but I've only had it at 0% incline and less than 1 mph for fun versus exercise.

[MissGambler'sMommy]

Fido: Miss Gambler loves the treadmill, and I keep it on a slight incline.

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by Dillydoodle

Thank you for posting this information it is very helpful. Does this information basically apply for elbow dysplaisa as well?

I really don't know a lot about elbow dysplasia and so when I had the opportunity to ask someone more knowledgeable last night, that's what I did. Elbow dysplasia is not a Pembroke "problem" (which would be in retrospect, as you did find out, the vet was way off base and clueless as to what was going on). It occurs in large breeds and those with heavier mass such as Saints and Berners. But it would be the same thing in the bones not fitting into the socket properly. Now corgis can be "out at the elbow" where the elbows drift outward from the chest wall, but that's not the same as elbow dysplasia. This structural flaw is not a health issue, just results in wasted energy in their movement.

Debbie

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by fido

Debbie--you are a fount of information! We love your posts.

thanks

Question-you mentioned long distance jogging/running with a puppy is problematic. What is considered a long distance? Buddy (10 months) and I walk for 3-5 minutes, run for 1 minute for anywhere from 30-45 minutes, 2-3 days/week. And regular walks the other days at the kids pace for 30 or so minutes. Is this appropriate?

Sounds fine. You're not going at a full out pace the whole time and for hours.

Also Michael mentioned in a post that hill training is a must for back leg muscle development. As we live in Houston, TX--where the land is quite flat--would treadmill incline exercise be helpful? and what incline would be appropriate? For humans, physical therapists suggest a 3% incline for strengthening the muscles which stabilize the knee. What are your thoughts given that steep inclines are not suggested? What is steep for a corgi? Buddy has been on the treadmill occasionally for about five minutes after my run on it. He enjoys it, but I've only had it at 0% incline and less than 1 mph for fun versus exercise.

One thing to keep in perspective is Michael's method of exercising Taylor is a part of conditioning and training him for agility. The treadmill isn't going to hurt (professional handlers use them all the time to condition their show dogs) and this is only a guess that the 3% incline would be fine. IF Buddy likes it and has fun, well no law that says training or exercise can't be fun too. A corgi could handle most any steep incline, where I see a problem potentially arising is the repetitive drilling of up and down on such an incline. Picture high school football stadium bleachers and how the coaches have the boys run up and down them in drills - that's what I would consider causing potential problems if it were done on a regular basis. Clear as mud?

Debbie

[Dillydoodle]

Debbie,
Thanks for that clarification on that, He wasnt even "out at the elbows" when checked by the corgi vet, so I just think it was a case of a vet not knowing how a normal corgi's xray looks...
Emilie

[MissGambler'sMommy]

Miss Gambler has her physical and yearly heartworm test this afternoon, but next week I am going to make it my mission to find a vet that has working knowledge of Corgis. I have been reading too much on this site about vets not being familiar enough with the breed, and in a major incident, that lack of that knowledge could be critical. Any ideas on how to find this wonderful vet, without just going throught the phone book? I don't know anyone else with a Corgi whom I can ask for a reference, which I think is very important, so maybe I won't hit the phone book. Guess I'm stuck.

[fido]

Debbie---Thanks for your clarification. The information is much apppreciated.

Miss Gambler, you might try reputable corgi breeders in your area and ask who they use for their veterinary services. Even if the breeders aren't close, they may still have information/recommendation (ours did). Also, try http://www.pembrokecorgi.org/ and click on the club for your area and talk with the club board members for their suggestions (breeders for your area would be listed at this site also). These places are at least a start. Good Luck!

[MissGambler'sMommy]

Fido: I'll try that link, and thanks, but the breeder issue is part of the problem. There just aren't any in this area. We went all the way to South Dakota to find a reputable breeder, and one that we really liked. We have kept our eye on the market, thinking that one day we would get Miss Gambler a friend(something that we always talk ourselves out of) and the Corgi market is not that great out here, and I guess that can be a good thing, we would not want Corgis being bred all over the place, now would we?

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by Dillydoodle

Debbie,
Thanks for that clarification on that, He wasnt even "out at the elbows" when checked by the corgi vet, so I just think it was a case of a vet not knowing how a normal corgi's xray looks...
Emilie

I think I've told the story of a new owner taking her Cardigan puppy to the vet for its first visit. He had a pretty good Cardigan front, had the turn out the breed is supposed to have in the front (front feet point a little eastie-westie) and just a little more pronounced knuckling. Knuckling or knuckling over is when there is a forward bending of the leg at the wrist joint when a dog is standing. The vet examined the puppy and declared he had a luxating patella (talking about the knuckling). (Patellas are the knees in the back legs for those who don't know.) The owner went into hysterics. The breeder (my sister) was very upset and went on an information search. Luxating patellas do occur in Pems, but are not a Cardigan problem. That was one problem and when it was discovered the vet didn't even have her canine anatomy correct. Fortunately having great mentors and a breeder vet a phone call away; the problem was resolved - there wasn't one except for the incompetent vet.

Debbie

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by MissGambler'sMommy

Fido: I'll try that link, and thanks, but the breeder issue is part of the problem. There just aren't any in this area.

MGM there are two Pembroke Corgi clubs in CA and the National Specialty just finished up out there within the past two weeks. When you go to http://www.pwcca.org don't only use the member/breeder list, also go to the regional club list; that expands your resources/options significantly.

the Corgi market is not that great out here, and I guess that can be a good thing, we would not want Corgis being bred all over the place, now would we?

Well according the rescue numbers, the corgi market is pretty hot out there, and no, the latter is not a good thing.

Debbie

[TheGoldenCorgi]

I don't mean to bring this thread back to life. But I did not want to create a new thread and cause a disorganization on this forum when such a thread already exists.

So here's my case (I am paranoid):

Jin is about 3 months old (2 days shy of it) and when he runs I notice that he DOES bunny-hop but I tend to notice that bunny-hopping exists in my friend's Corgi while in the grass as well (must be a Corgi thing?).

When he is indoors (we have tiles), if he is walking or following me, he will walk normally without any bunny-hopping. But if he is chasing another dog around the house and doing so quickly, he will sometimes bunny-hop.

I also notice in the morning, after a long night's sleep. He will get out of his crate, sit down and drink from the tray. Then he will go lay down on his stomach and then stretch and put his face on the floor (real cute lol).

Are these signs of CHD? I mean I don't want to be overly paranoid but I did read that glencorgi say that bunny-hopping isn't a rule of thumb used when diagnosing Corgi's that Bunny-hop with CHD, since they have a tendency to do so even in healthy Corgis.

[Michael Romanos]

Bunny-hopping little Corgis is for us to enjoy and no worries about being a sign of the dreaded HD.

[TheGoldenCorgi]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

Bunny-hopping little Corgis is for us to enjoy and no worries about being a sign of the dreaded HD.

Thanks Michael.

I do appreciate your quick response. But I am curious though, if people say HD is quite common in our friend's breed, then how do we really know for sure if he/she is suffering from it? Provided that bunny-hopping really isn't a prime indicator in Corgis like in other dog breeds?