Coat color genetics

[Chip's Mom]

I am looking forward to the tutorial that Deb is going to do on corgi colors at the TN Corgi Picnic this year.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by nrhareiner

She has to be a red of some shad as nither of her parents are sables so she can not be a sable either acourding to the site as it is a dominent gene. So I will register her as a red and hope the judge and show staff does not question it. I know when showing horses they never even ask to see the horse that you are submiting the papers on for the show.

Not true, Lady is a black headed tri and Floyd is a red. Their puppies are 1 red and 4 sables.

And I've seen sables in litters from two reds. Or a red and a tri. The red gene is domaniant.

Judges and show staff do not see the registration papers. They will never know how she's registered. And no they don't ask to see the dog when you enter a dog show.

Did you get her from a breeder who shows? If so then she should be guiding you on the showing stuff.
Peggy

[nrhareiner]

I am located in Swanton Ohio juse west of Toledo.

The breeder I got her from thinks she could be either she said to waight until she shead out to really see if she keeps any of the black. To me it looks more like a Grulla color then black or even a really really dark red and both parents are red. Her dam is a very deep red. I did not get to see either parent this time up there as they where both back with the handler and being shown.

I want to get her reg. as I want to enter her in a show in June and the close date is mid may so that really does not give me a lot of time depening on how long it takes them to get everything done. I also have anouther pup I need to send paper work in on however there is no doubt of her color. Not much choise in Goldens. I just do not what to pay the extra to change it if it is incorrect.


This is what I got from one of the sites listed here. Now assuming this is the correct path of inharitance then the only way to have a sable pup is to 1 have a sable parent or having a black basied parent where the modifier is hiden. Althoug I would also think that since it is a modifier and needs the black gene to be expressed then it could hide in that way also.

Oh well does not matter I will reg. her as a red and white and if someone says somthing then I will worry about it. I know from my showing experiance that the show commities are not very good at makeing sure the animals match their papers.

Heidi

"Sable is a dominant modifier gene. Sabling causes a pattern of black-tipped red hair on the body. The pigmentation is normal black. The sable pattern typically forms a black cap on the forehead and may include a black shoulder shawl and saddle on the back.

Most red Cardigans express some amount of random black hairs in their coat. A true sable may have some random black hairs also, but unless the red hair is black tipped and forms a pattern, this is not a true sable.

It is theorized that a sable must carry the black gene in order to express its color. I have found this to be true in my breeding program. Since sable is only expressed on red hair, a brindle or black may carry the sable modifier without expressing it."

[glencorgi]

She's red and white and her adult coat is going to be in the range of what is showing on her head now - that is my prediction. Again, neither corgi breed is separated into color varieties in the conformation ring (with the exception of an event at the Cardigan National, which is of no concern here). There are many red & white PWC's in the show ring yesterday, today and tomorrow that are misregistered as sables. When filling out a show entry, color is not a blank that is filled out, so it isn't going to matter at all even by remote chance she ends up with sabling on her saddle for example. Not that I think that is going to be her coloring. So basically at least as far as an entry form goes, you could register her as polka dot and nobody at the show is going to check. Additionally, there are no disqualifying faults in the Pembroke standard.

Cathy Ochs Cline, whom you are quoting has expressed her understanding of sable in Cardigans. I've talked with other Cardigan breeders, who have been around even longer than Cathy, about sable and when I asked if sable was a color or a color pattern, their answer was it might be both. It is still a debated color.

IF there are no black headed tris behind her, then the odds of her being sable are very, very, very slim to most likely none. Here is the clincher: "It is theorized that a sable must carry the black gene in order to express its color. I have found this to be true in my breeding program. Since sable is only expressed on red hair, a brindle or black may carry the sable modifier without expressing it." That is not saying the same thing as you understood it:

Now assuming this is the correct path of inharitance then the only way to have a sable pup is to 1 have a sable parent or having a black basied parent where the modifier is hiden.

One of the most gorgeous full shaded sable Cardigans I know did not produce a sable puppy in any of her breedings.

You are way over thinking this. While it is a fun exercise to predict colors or work through inherited colors, <IMO> it is clear she is red and white. I've had a sable puppy as a rescue, same age as your girl and there was no doubt that she was sable due to the patterning in her color. Your girl is exhibiting nothing like that.

Dominant modifiers and whether they are expressed or not is a bit different and more complicated than simple dominant and recessives we normally think of.

Debbie

Even IF you decide to wait a bit, you can't enter her in AKC shows until she's six months old anyway and late fees don't kick in until after a year, so there is time.

[Chip's Mom]

When Dale was tiny he was black now he is a brown but underneath his coat is still has alot of black. He kind of looks like mud LOL. Anyway his little face is turning red so I think I will have another red and white. His mom is a red and white and his dad is a tri which I have posted before. If Deb says he will be red and white then red and white he will be.

[ZdogZ]

Bonnie ~ I love your new avatar! How cute!!

[nrhareiner]

I understand that there is no makings on entrie forms for color. That is not what I am saying. I am very familiare with showing animals. Have been doing it for years. Non ask for color of the animal on the entrie from unless it is a color registry type show. What I do not want to run into is the problem of at some point is someone saying hay that dog does not match the papers. Them makes a big stink about it. Although since they do to ask for you to provide pictures or markinds of the animal when they are registered. Which I think is wrong. There is very little way to know if that is the correct dog for those papers.

I do very much understand how differnt genes work on color. All I need to know is which are considered bass color and which are dominant over the other.

Modifiers are not truely dominent or recesive like that of basse color they just modify a color. However when they are there they are expressed as long as the gene they modifie is present. If not then it is said to hide. Delutes again are the same they are a expressed if present. They look differnt in the hetrozigous form then the homozigous form. However some delutes can hide is some colors but this is rear.

Although I NEVER breed for color it is fun to know the posibilities anyway and understand the genetics behind breeding.

Heidi

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by nrhareiner

I understand that there is no makings on entrie forms for color. That is not what I am saying. I am very familiare with showing animals. Have been doing it for years. Non ask for color of the animal on the entrie from unless it is a color registry type show. What I do not want to run into is the problem of at some point is someone saying hay that dog does not match the papers. Them makes a big stink about it.

That's not going to happen in corgis. Questions about parentage or identification, well then they are going to go to DNA profiles, microchip and/or tattoos - permanent identifications. There a few parent clubs which require DNA profiles before a dog can be entered in their National specialities, but again, doesn't apply to corgis.

Although since they do to ask for you to provide pictures or markinds of the animal when they are registered. Which I think is wrong. There is very little way to know if that is the correct dog for those papers.

With what registery are you registering her? NOT on the AKC papers I have to sign and get in the mail for my new Cardigan puppy they don't. Pictures are only required in AKC for ILP's (Indefinite Listing Privileges) and those are for dogs known to be purebred but with no AKC registration papers available - such as the case with rescues. Dog's that are ILP'd have to be neutered and cannot compete in conformation.

I do very much understand how differnt genes work on color. All I need to know is which are considered bass color and which are dominant over the other.

Which you were told - red and black, with red being dominant over black.
From those of around 40 years of corgi breeding experience, they say the surest way of getting a sable is to breed a black headed tri to a pure for red.

Modifiers are not truely dominent or recesive like that of basse color they just modify a color. However when they are there they are expressed as long as the gene they modifie is present. If not then it is said to hide. Delutes again are the same they are a expressed if present. They look differnt in the hetrozigous form then the homozigous form. However some delutes can hide is some colors but this is rear.

In Pembrokes there isn't but one dilute to be concerned about, the other one would still produce a "legal" color. Cardigans is a whole 'nother ball game and there are some color breeding restrictions IF one is breeding with the Code of Ethics of the CWCCA. Modifiers can also be autosomal dominant, so it only takes on copy of it in order for it to be expressed. In the case of merle for example, homozygous - two copies of it can produce health issues potentially.

I'm going out on a limb here with this question, is your breeding experience in horses by chance?

Although I NEVER breed for color it is fun to know the posibilities anyway and understand the genetics behind breeding.

Which is exactly why there shouldn't be the big hoopla over what color to register your puppy, her breeder should be able to answer that with no problem IF she knows her basic genetics and the colors behind her dogs.

Debbie