Pems with Tails

[glencorgi]

Sorry Cheetah - looks like several of us are having bad days (me included) or are causing others to have a bad (me included). My "ummm, not they're not" was written with a sigh of despair and futility. Unfortunately, there's no emoticon for that. The tailed Pems you posted are standing and relaxed - not on the move. Yes, I've seen a number of tailed Pembies ranging from well bred Finnish imports (where docking is not allowed) to very poor bred hardly recognizable as Pems ones. On the move or excited is a very different silhouette. Tails go up and over the back. That's not how a fox carries it's tail on the move and for a Pem to be able to carry its tail like a fox does (or a correct Cardigan tail - streaming out behind) that would indicate incorrect tail set and rear structure. For me it is interesting from a technical and scholarly type view point, I don't find it attractive for a Pembroke. Not insulting anyone's tailed Pembroke, don't mean it that way at all, and one of my most special Pem buddies has a 3/4 length natural bob - very cute individuals, I just don't want to loose a very important detail as to what makes a Pembroke a Pembroke and that is a bunny butt.

Debbie

Debbie

[Cheetah]

That's too bad that it's not correct... it does look foxy when they hold them down like that. By any chance do you have any pictures of a tailed pembroke with a proper tail set? I can't find proper ones online... >-.-;<

In other news, I just found out something about Shippo's breeder that I don't really like. The way Shippo's tail was docked (rubber band at 3 days old, instead of a proper dock at the vet, ICK!).

She actively shows and puts titles on her dogs, etc, so it honestly never crossed my mind. >-.-< That is the only thing I never asked and should have I guess. *Ashamed*

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

That's too bad that it's not correct... it does look foxy when they hold them down like that. By any chance do you have any pictures of a tailed pembroke with a proper tail set? I can't find proper ones online... >-.-;<

I think some have been posted in other threads on this topic.

Originally Posted by Cheetah

In other news, I just found out something about Shippo's breeder that I don't really like. The way Shippo's tail was docked (rubber band at 3 days old, instead of a proper dock at the vet, ICK!).

That IS a proper way to dock Pembroke tails, respected, responsible and reputable and preferred. It is less stressful and traumatic on a puppy, plus one does not risk exposing the puppy to who knows what with a visit to a vet's office. Surgical docking is far more invasive and traumatic to a puppy. There has been extensive discussion on this topic on GC.

She actively shows and puts titles on her dogs, etc, so it honestly never crossed my mind. >-.-< That is the only thing I never asked and should have I guess. *Ashamed*

There is NO reason to be ashamed, and his breeder did NOTHING inhumane or wrong, merely followed appropriate preferred methods.

Debbie

[Michael Romanos]

Pembrokes (at least those whose ancestors have not intermingled with Cardis anytime in the twenthieth century) with tails intact can have a variety of tails. They can even have plenty of length and be kind of bushy, but generally speaking when a Pem is really excited and full-on alert, there tails go up and even curl back a smidgeon. Pems are not anywhere near the only breed of dog whose tails 'rise to the occasion' and at conformation shows, people with these other breeds of dogs are constantly fanning out their dogs tails so that they don't stick up.
The Vallhund - who is probably a breed of dog that went into the mix that makes a Pem what it is today - has four completely different tail types. And all types still qualify as acceptable for conformation showing. Vallhunds go from 'bob' tails to tails with some good length to tails which have a real spitz curl.

[LittlePonzo]

A tad off topic, but I actually recently had some lady give me attitude about Ponzo's docked tail. Like I did it myself just for kicks! She looked at him and said, "Where's his tail?" (Well let me clarify, first she said, "Now you just said Corgi when I asked what he was? I've heard of Welsh ones, is there a difference?" To which I responded, "All corgi's are Welsh ones, but there are two different breeds of WELSH corgi- Pembroke and Cardigan.) Rewind to her asking about the tail again...So I say about the tail, "Pembrokes generally don't have them because they are docked or born with a short little tail."
She then sighs at me in digust and rolls her eyes and comments "Oh, I hate that, why would you ruin that poor dog?" I said, " I didn't have his tail docked, when I purchased him that is what he looked like." "The breeders here usually dock them at about 1-3 days old." So again she said, "Well, I think it's disgusting." So I looked at Ponzo and said, Let's go buddy and never looked back.

Can you believe it? I found that so offensive, what did she want me to do regrow his tail? Honestly, I don't care for the idea of docking but I love that bunny butt! I just couldn't believe that I had never met this woman before and she decided to use me as her soapbox. Sorry, this thread stirred up those emotions! HA!

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by LittlePonzo

Can you believe it? I found that so offensive, what did she want me to do regrow his tail? Honestly, I don't care for the idea of docking but I love that bunny butt! I just couldn't believe that I had never met this woman before and she decided to use me as her soapbox. Sorry, this thread stirred up those emotions! HA!

Yeah, I can believe it. And IMO, it's none of her business.

You know the dogs don't miss their tails. Nor do they worry or wish that they had one. So IMO, it's nothing to worry about.

Peggy

[Cheetah]

So is it different with puppies? I always thought puppies could feel things a certain amount of time before they're even born. Is that wrong? They don't have nerves when they're born? I'm sure this is debatable... but I'm really confused.

I think this is one of those "off" days. I don't seem to be getting anything right.

[Dillydoodle]

Dillon's breeder docks using rubber band method as well.. I look at as it is probably like when a human baby is born and the umbillical cord is tied and then it just dries up and falls off ( ewww).. ( i was horrified when i learned about babies having parts falling off...probably another reason on my long list of reasons I never had human kids LOL!) but banding is supposed to be the best, least stressful way to dock.
Emilie

[ColColt]

Hmmmmm....appears I opened a Pandora's box from what I've read. I had originally been curious after seeing the photo I posted the link for and also because Katie had a bushy tail. I know Katie wasn't 100% Corgi but, she was pretty close with her short legs, long body and facial features. Debbie said she was probably a mix of Corgi and American Eskimo and to that I'll agree after seeing eight or ten photos of Eskimos. I hope to find out about the Mom sometime this month or next if possible as I hear she just had another litter.

Corgi's are the best, be it tail or not to tail!

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

So is it different with puppies? I always thought puppies could feel things a certain amount of time before they're even born. Is that wrong? They don't have nerves when they're born? I'm sure this is debatable... but I'm really confused.

I think this is one of those "off" days. I don't seem to be getting anything right.

Nah, not necessarily not getting it right, just more to learn about it.

The nerve endings in babies and puppies aren't complete at birth. So you have a week or so where things don't hurt as much if at all. So if we dock at 3 days old it's not as traumatic as people think.

You know, from what I've seen over the years they're more upset about being away from mom and littermates than the actual docking. Once they're put back with littermates or mom they settle right down.

And for what it's worth, I have my vet dock mine. I'm one who's not real good at the banding method. Althought IMO, either way is ok.

Peggy

[bec]

Originally Posted by ColColt

I saw something odd to me while viewing some members Corgis. Someone named "bec" posted some pics of their pet and it was a Pembroke with a tail!!! I've never seen that before. It was definitely a sable/white Pem with a tail...not a Cardigan. Does this happen often that one will be born with a tail?

http://www.gocorgi.com/gallery/showi...&imageuser=632

Sorry I missed this thread.

Douglas is pedigree Pembroke Corgi.
His father came second in the 2006 Corgi Nationals in Australia.

As Michael stated, Australia has not banned tail docking as such.
The legislation, from my understanding, outlaws the process of docking in some states. There is no legislation or rules in the canine councils that punish the owners of docked dogs. They can also still be shown. They are also finding it very hard to find someone that will stand up in court and state whether a tail has been docked, or is a natural bobtail. For this reason, a fair number of tail-less corgi pups are still being seen.

The tail docking debate is very heated here in Australia, as it is globally. Each side is very passionate about their views. I, for one, beleive that docking of a puppies tail should NOT be done purely for 'fashion'. If it is to reduce risk of injury, well, that is different. Although To this date, I have seen NO evidence that corgis with tails commonly damage their tails. I have seen only 1 case of significant injury since the 'ban' has come in.

I cannot imagine Douglas without his tail and think that it looks great.

[Fluffypants]

Originally Posted by Dillydoodle

Dillon's breeder docks using rubber band method as well.. I look at as it is probably like when a human baby is born and the umbillical cord is tied and then it just dries up and falls off ( ewww).. ( i was horrified when i learned about babies having parts falling off...probably another reason on my long list of reasons I never had human kids LOL!) but banding is supposed to be the best, least stressful way to dock.
Emilie

So funny Emilie - I view the banding method the same way (like human babies). And I figure - if we do it to our OWN babies, then it can't be so bad.

And I'm sure we have all had to deal with unsolicited opinions about the docked tails on our dogs at some point (I know I sure have). You would think I sawed it off with a steak knife, the way some people act! I also have a lot of people who ask "Where's the tail?", combined with a nose wrinkle, as if Jackie is some kind of radioactive mutant dog because she doesn't have one.

Sorry folks - not every dog is a lab - nowadays there are all different kinds out there! Sheesh!

[Dillydoodle]

Jessica, that cracks me up- i had one person who used to see Dillon and me walking every single day, and one day we were talking and she suddenly said " oh my gosh, he doesn't have a tail!" Like he had one last week and now it is GONE! LOL She told me she always thought he had his tail tucked between his legs and he was so short that she never saw it! oh dear!
Around here the dogs you see the most are labs, Goldens and pugs. I proudly walk my corgi and get the comments about what a cute mixed breed he is - or is that some kind of shepherd mix...You know i would be upset but it is better that they are a hidden secret than going the way of the golden, the pug, etc etc...

Emilie

[LittlePonzo]

UH! I know what you mean! What I can't stand about the no tail comments is the fact that, for me at least, it is always followed by, "I've never seen a dog without a tail before!" To which I always reply, "really, lots of breeds don't have tails." I want to be like..."do you live in a hole! Have you never seen a Rottweiler, Boston Terrier, Boxer." And then I'd like to add..."How about German SHorthaired Pointers, Viszlas, or Weimaraners, what did their tail grow half way and then suddenly stop. HOw do you think it got like that!?"
And don't even get me started on the whole lab thing....Since I was five, I have never cared for popular dogs. I used to start conversations with "My family is getting a Corgi, do you know what they look like?" Or "When I grow up I am going to have 5 dogs and one is definitely going to be a Bernese Mountain Dog. They are rare here, ya know." I know you are all probably thinking what a nerdy five year old, but I read my first dog breed book every night to myself and my parents until it finally fell apart from page turnings when I was about 20. Anyway, don't get me wrong, labs are nice family dogs and smart too...but it does get tiring seeing the same dogs over and over again (Goldens, Labs, more Goldens, GSD, Labs, Goldens, more Labs, etc!) So I know exactly what you mean.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by LittlePonzo

UH! I know what you mean! What I can't stand about the no tail comments is the fact that, for me at least, it is always followed by, "I've never seen a dog without a tail before!" To which I always reply, "really, lots of breeds don't have tails." I want to be like..."do you live in a hole! Have you never seen a Rottweiler, Boston Terrier, Boxer."

Those dogs have tails, just very short ones. Schipperkes, Old English Sheepdogs, Pembroke Welsh Corgis, and a few others don't have any tail at all. Or shouldn't.

And then I'd like to add..."How about German SHorthaired Pointers, Viszlas, or Weimaraners, what did their tail grow half way and then suddenly stop. HOw do you think it got like that!?"

Add poodles. Cockers, and well, there are quite a few breeds that are docked. And yes, most dogs with "half tails" are docked.

Peggy