Breeding carriers of vWD?

[breepeace]

Hi everyone,

I heard recently that a pembroke breeder I have spoken to in the past has a show quality male she is trying to sell on a co-ownership and that he is a vWD carrier.

I'm just looking to get into PWCs, and in my past breeds vWD isn't a prevelant problem, but from what I have been told from friends who own affected breeds, carriers should never be bred. However, if she's selling this male as show quality, it somehow leads me to believe that eventually he may be used in someone's breeding program.

Is this a common practice? I know nothing about the gene pool in Pems, so I don't know if it's a necessity or not.

I tried asking another pem breeder but she pretty well attacked me to find out who the other breeder was, and didn't ever answer my question, and I'd really like to know!

[Michael Romanos]

Pems are listed as one of the most likely breeds of dogs to suffer from von Willebrand Disease. Having said that I personally know little about it among the Corgis and Corgi people I have been associated with - and some of these have been breeders.
The offspring MAY inherit this blood disorder from a parent who is affected. There are three types of vWD - one type can only be passed on if BOTH parents have the disorder. Another type is an antosomal recessive trait. Only a small proportion of vWD affected dogs have a severe problem. The condition can be managed.
Is the risk of breeding from a vWD affected male never worthwhile in any circumstances or is it acceptable as a considered risk.
I'll ask an internationally recognised Pem breeder.

[Michael Romanos]

vWD is uncommon in New Zealand thank goodness. It is not promising for an affected dog to have a long life. A genetical carrier of vWD is just that - not affected but a carrier only and can only be used for breeding when matched with a cleared female/male dog.
I hope this makes the position of the breeder you are discussing, clearer.

[glencorgi]

First, if you have looked at the typical threads on this forum and if you've been involved in the show world in other breeds; it should be pretty obvious this is not exactly the best resource for answers to the type of questions you are asking. ShowDogs-L and ShowPem-L would much better serve your needs.

Having said that and to answer your co-ownership questions in your other post; nothing unusual about that offer at all, especially when one is a novice in the breed.

On breeding a vWD carrier, well evidently this breeder is breeding them or the puppy available wouldn't be a carrier. On the one hand I wouldn't necessarily make the leap that the puppy you've been offered is intended for breeding. The breeder may be seeing it as an opportunity for you as a novice to get your feet wet with a nice puppy and prove yourself. The breeder may want his championship to go towards one of his parent's ROM's for example.

With an autosomal recessive mode of inheritance and carriers not being affected/no health risk; hypothetically and in theory including vWD carriers in a breeding program can be responsibly managed. However, from discussions on the breed show list, vWD does not seem to be as cut and dry/black and white as some other traits with the same mode of inheritance as far as carriers being affected. The more common position in the breed (US wise at least) is to avoid including carriers in a breeding program. Without knowing specifics, I can only speculate as to the breeder's intentions of this particular puppy as far as breeding goes and as I said, he/she may be offering him as a means for you to break into the breed, not necessarily to be included in a breeding program.

Debbie

[breepeace]

Originally Posted by glencorgi

First, if you have looked at the typical threads on this forum and if you've been involved in the show world in other breeds; it should be pretty obvious this is not exactly the best resource for answers to the type of questions you are asking. ShowDogs-L and ShowPem-L would much better serve your needs.

Having said that and to answer your co-ownership questions in your other post; nothing unusual about that offer at all, especially when one is a novice in the breed.

On breeding a vWD carrier, well evidently this breeder is breeding them or the puppy available wouldn't be a carrier. On the one hand I wouldn't necessarily make the leap that the puppy you've been offered is intended for breeding. The breeder may be seeing it as an opportunity for you as a novice to get your feet wet with a nice puppy and prove yourself. The breeder may want his championship to go towards one of his parent's ROM's for example.

With an autosomal recessive mode of inheritance and carriers not being affected/no health risk; hypothetically and in theory including vWD carriers in a breeding program can be responsibly managed. However, from discussions on the breed show list, vWD does not seem to be as cut and dry/black and white as some other traits with the same mode of inheritance as far as carriers being affected. The more common position in the breed (US wise at least) is to avoid including carriers in a breeding program. Without knowing specifics, I can only speculate as to the breeder's intentions of this particular puppy as far as breeding goes and as I said, he/she may be offering him as a means for you to break into the breed, not necessarily to be included in a breeding program.

Debbie

Hi Debbie,

I'm not sure what you're referring to with this not being the best resource. It's a forum for Corgis and allows for a little bit more anonymity than email lists do, I would prefer the breeder in question not know I'm asking about it. Your response provided quite a bit of insight.

As for the male, you're correct that he may just be being sold as a show dog, but what worries me is that she asked after telling me about him she mentioned her co-ownership and the clauses on stud use. I wonder if she was concerned about carrying on vWD, why she wouldn't just ask that he be finished and then neutered? Most people wouldn't have too much of a problem with that, since the dog could still be used in performance venues.

Since he was also offered to a friend of mine, who IS looking to start her foundation line in Corgis also (this the breeder was told), it becomes a little more worrisome still.

I'm the type of person that wouldn't even breed an OFA Fair rated dog to an Excellent (just because I've seen how THAT backfires in 4 different breeds), so I'm not sure I could, in good conscience, use a male I was aware was a carrier of vWD to further someone else's lines. Beyond that, my (admittedly) limited knowledge about the disease itself, has me a little scared. I know it's similar to our hemophilia in humans, which was also something that scared me.

I was just curious to see if it was common, because it does produce some doubt in my mind whether Corgis are the breed for me, if it is.

[Michael Romanos]

Go Corgi is a very good avenue for airing any questions about Corgis and Corgi-related problems and issues. That is our chief purpose and vital organ. The more varied the better, the more challenging the better, the more away from the comfort zone the better.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by breepeace

I'm not sure what you're referring to with this not being the best resource. It's a forum for Corgis and allows for a little bit more anonymity than email lists do, I would prefer the breeder in question not know I'm asking about it. Your response provided quite a bit of insight.

I think her concern is that there aren't very many show people on this forum. And what you're asking about is a show related item. So not as many here to give advice on that as would be on showdogs or showpem.

But I understand your not wanting the breeder to know about your questions.

As for the male, you're correct that he may just be being sold as a show dog, but what worries me is that she asked after telling me about him she mentioned her co-ownership and the clauses on stud use. I wonder if she was concerned about carrying on vWD, why she wouldn't just ask that he be finished and then neutered? Most people wouldn't have too much of a problem with that, since the dog could still be used in performance venues.

Some breeders will breed carriers if the dog is not affected in any way. Some just carry the gene and don't have any symptoms or effects from it. And if bred to a non carrier the puppies would not be affected although some could still be carriers.

I'm the type of person that wouldn't even breed an OFA Fair rated dog to an Excellent (just because I've seen how THAT backfires in 4 different breeds), so I'm not sure I could, in good conscience, use a male I was aware was a carrier of vWD to further someone else's lines. Beyond that, my (admittedly) limited knowledge about the disease itself, has me a little scared. I know it's similar to our hemophilia in humans, which was also something that scared me.

Well, it's not really common in Pems and most that are carriers don't show signs at all. And from what I've heard there are very few affected pems. It's thought that they die in utero and never survive. Although that is not known.

And there are a lot of OFA fair pems. And yes, they are bred. Fair is a common rating in pems and they are not dysplastic so no one sees a problem with breeding them.

There are plenty of breeders who will sell without contracts or with ones that are more fair to you.

Peggy

[breepeace]

Originally Posted by taflar

And there are a lot of OFA fair pems. And yes, they are bred. Fair is a common rating in pems and they are not dysplastic so no one sees a problem with breeding them.

Thanks Peggy,

I'm happy to hear Fair Pems don't seem to be affected by dysplasia.

My experience was our Bouvier's sire was a Fair and her mom was a Good and she had mild hip dysplasia (she passed away in December). My dad's Golden was a Fair Dam to an Excellent Sire, and has mild hip dysplasia. A colleague's Bernese was a Fair Dam to a Good Sire, and has hip dysplasia. Another lady with a GSP had a Fair bred to a Fair, and she was recently put down at 7 years old because of the severity of her HD.

It just makes me apprehensive when I see it in other breeds.. I don't want to play with fire.

[Michael Romanos]

Make no mistake, Corgis can suffer from HD - but it is not prevalent nor is it a common ailment among Corgis. HD is a terrible scourge among some breeds and quite often it is not apparent until the affected dogs are well out of their puppyhood.

[glencorgi]

Well just a scan back through the archives on GC and the number of hip issues that have come up might change a thinking mind about the prevelance of HD in Pembrokes. As I'm sure you realize even excellent to excellent parents can end up with dysplastic get. The US is the leader in screening for HD, not many other countries do.

Peggy was right in her interpretation of what I meant by this forum not being the best resource for the questions you are asking. Those with the background to provide the info you are looking for are a minority and a very small one at that. I can understand wanting to keep a bit anonymous though. You might also want to look into Corgi-L The OFFICIAL Corgi-L Home Page! which is the oldest general corgi discussion list around. There are many show people on there, but it's focus is general discussion.

There is a DNA marker for vWD, although reports coming in now are not so certain that the test is as accurate as it was believed to be initially. Unfortunately this is showing up during c-sections. Pembrokes are not the easiest of whelpers and require a lot of assistance (and c-sections), although our friend from NZ will dispute this fact, he's not spent any time in a whelping box either.

Another health issue to research is degenerative myleopathy. Seems to be an increase in Pembrokes showing up with it, or at least they are more visible or we hear more about it today. Could be better communications via the internet, or being more openly talked about by breeders, better diagnosis or the CorgiAid cart program bringing it out into the open more or all of the above.

Debbie

[Michael Romanos]

Debbie - facts would negate your concerns that Pems or Cardis are at any greater risk in whelping than any average dog breed.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by glencorgi

Unfortunately this is showing up during c-sections. Pembrokes are not the easiest of whelpers and require a lot of assistance (and c-sections), although our friend from NZ will dispute this fact, he's not spent any time in a whelping box either.

I'll second that! I've found that in Pems at least, there's about a 50% c-section rate. Corgis are not easy whelpers and often need help. At the least they need help in delivery and getting the puppies started.

Uterine inertia is not uncommon at all.

Peggy