Naturally tail-less not to be paired

[Michael Romanos]

Here is something I find very interesting.

As you know, some Pembroke Corgis are born tail-less (bob tailed), And it is an important reason why Pems have their tails docked - to conform. But one should never mate a naturally tail-less Corgi with another naturally tail-less (or bob tailed) Corgi. The reason is the risk of serious genetic problems that might arise with the off-spring. So there is never going to be a natural race of tail-less Pem Corgis. There are one or two other breeds of dogs and I believe a breed of cat where the same scenario applies.

[MyPemCharlie]

Michael, Have you heard of Pems born with "partial" bobtails? Charlie is from a litter of nine. The breeder told me that four were born with bobtails. While I was looking at the pups, I asked which ones were born bobtailed. She had not really kept track, but then she said that she had had the most of the tails shortened on the bobtailed pups because their tails were still too long.

[Michael Romanos]

I don't think partial bob-tailed relates to born naturally tail-less. They are just short tails.

[glencorgi]

Natural bobs can and do occur in a variety of lengths. So no, it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for a shorter bob to be docked/banded as most are still longer than what is accepted in the standard (AKC at least) today.

Debbie

[DarkSephiroth]

What kind of genetic problems are caused by breeding two tail-less Corgis?

[glencorgi]

It is potentially lethal, puppies die in vitro, there are spinal problems some like spina bifida in humans.

Having done some more reading to refresh my memory, the below from: ANNWN WELSH CORGIS
seems to clear this fear.

When some people hear that it may well be a lethal gene, they stop taking in the rest. Hopefully this will not happen here, but you will also take in the conclusion: SHould the bobtail gene be a lethal gene, the ONLY effect it will have is that there will never be a population of 100% bobtailed pembroke corgis, even when mating just bobtails to each other. Those who are born are as healthy and sound as the rest of their genetic make up allow for. The single bobtail gene causes no ill effects whatsoever. This is also what we have seen after about 16 years of breeding for natural short tails. A little over 60% of all pups born in Norway are bobs.

Debbie

[LaRogue]

Does tail-less in this context mean zero nub or natural docked? Not sure I'm wording my question right.

[glencorgi]

Well, in retrospect the original question didn't exactly use correct terminology.

My response would be in regards to breeding a natural bob to a natural bob.

Debbie

[LaRogue]

My response would be in regards to breeding a natural bob to a natural bob.

Thank you! So, in other words, if docking bans become a reality, Pems with natural bob gene (?) can never become predominant, because of the health issues? In other words, the breed HAS to have Pems with tails, for healthy dogs?

[glencorgi]

Thank you! So, in other words, if docking bans become a reality, Pems with natural bob gene (?) can never become predominant, because of the health issues? In other words, the breed HAS to have Pems with tails, for healthy dogs?

Here are some links on bob tail breeding:

GENETICS CAN BE FUN - Part 1

And this one, I consider done by one of the leading authorities on bob tails in Pembrokes:
ANNWN WELSH CORGIS

Debbie

[LaRogue]

Those were very interesting articles, thank you for posting the links!

[doggylove]

What kind of genetic problems are caused by breeding two tail-less Corgis?

I wonder this same thing... are the two breeds so different that it would cause extreme problems? where do you find this information anyway?

[Peggy]

I wonder this same thing... are the two breeds so different that it would cause extreme problems? where do you find this information anyway?

Corgis and Pems? Yes, they are very different. Different in size, looks and definately temperments.

The topic however, is on breeding two natural bob tail Pems together. And as Debbie said it can cause a puppy to die in utero.

The info is found in dog books on genetics or on the internet. I believe Debbie posted some links:
ANNWN WELSH CORGIS
GENETICS CAN BE FUN - Part 1

Peggy

[FlyingCorgi]

Interesting...while researching corgis it seemed that they were all 'naturally tailless'. I even flipped through a book called the Dog Bible which listed breeds including traits, flaws, etc and they were listed as such. Any guess what percentage in the US is actually born with tails and docked to meet the standard?

[glencorgi]

Interesting...while researching corgis it seemed that they were all 'naturally tailless'. I even flipped through a book called the Dog Bible which listed breeds including traits, flaws, etc and they were listed as such. Any guess what percentage in the US is actually born with tails and docked to meet the standard?

Among reputable breeders, nearly all of them would be.

Now another interesting twist in this. In Australia where there is a docking ban, a breeder there just excitably announced a new litter of seven pups, five with natural bobs. We still want our bunny butts.

Debbie