Breeder selling cryptorchid puppy

[junkdna]

Hello

I am hoping to get some input from some breeders and those that are experts in the purchase of corgis. I recently purchased a male corgi for $800, what I consider the upper end of the price range for a corgi. I told the breeder that I bought my female for $500, but she said her corgis come from champion stock and that is the price that they ask. I specified that I wanted to breed him with my female for one litter. She charged extra for a non neutered dog.

I took my new male corgi (now named Kevin) to the vet to have him checked out. The vet informed me that Kevin is has bilateral cryptorchidism. He said that he cannot feel the testicles in the scrotum or the inguinum space. After doing my research I have come to find that this disorder requires that my dog be neutered or risk torsion or testicular cancer (i.e. no breeding for Kevin). In addition, the cost to neuter is much more seeing they have to surgically enter the abdominal cavity. I've also found out that cryptorchidism is a sex linked recessive chromosomal disorder. This means that the breeder's champion bred female is either homozygous (2 bad genes) or heterozygous (1 bad gene one good gene) for the disorder.

I contacted the breeder about this situation and she said she would either replace the puppy (if we wanted to breed multiple litters) or offer to breed my female with one of her studs if we only wanted one litter. I have now had Kevin for two and a half month and come quite attached to him, cryptorchid and all. As far as I can tell in the area of AKC registration, I can no longer register him because his genetic disorder. From what I can tell, Kevin's mother is also disqualified as she is definitely producing genetically defective offspring.

I want to keep Kevin, but I feel that she should refund some of the money she charged me for what was supposed to be a champion bred corgi and pay for the extra cost of neutering him. After all, if she knew about the crytorchidism, she could never sell Kevin for that large price tag. The most she could do is sell it for a greatly reduced price or give it to a good home.

What do you guys think I should do?

(favorite corgi icon)

[Katie Finlay]

My first question would be why you only want to breed one litter. Are you planning on becoming a breeder? Have you health screened your dogs? Do you have homes for the puppies? A Corgi litter range can be 1-12 pups. Are you willing and ready to provide homes for 12+ dogs if everyone bails? Breeding a bitch can risk her life. It's not easy business. It's not uncommon for good bitches to die in the whelping box. Are you ready for that? I'm hoping experienced breeders will chime in here.

As far as the cryptorchid pup, I would want the vet bills paid for as you didn't plan to neuter. I'd say $800 is about average for a good dog from solid lines. But I'd question a breeder who freely let her buyers breed all they want.

If you've done all the research, then good. But you can't blame me for asking.

[junkdna]

I know you are trying to stress the seriousness of the responsibility of breeding, but I assure you, I enter into no venture without doing as much research as possible ahead of time to ensure the greatest chance of success. It warms my heart to hear someone stressing the importance of good breeding practices.

I have a large amount friends and family who I would trust to keep and raise a corgi. They have visited my home have fallen in love with my corgis and wish to have one of their own. I do not plan on selling them to make money. I only want to see that my close family and friends who want a corgi will get one.

As far as the risk of breeding, as in any venture in breeding, people not excluded, there is a risk during the pregnancy and birthing process. I will make it my goal to do the most I can to ensure that that my female is as safe as possible.

I appreciate your concern but you give the impression of one who feels they are writing to an idiot who just got a male and a female corgi and wants to make puppies with no further preparations or research.

The main point of my post was the aspect you contributed the least effort to. I was most concerned about the selling practices of the breeder who sells a cryptorchid animal and then expects that I will pay for the neutering cost of up to $270. Your sentence in the response did answer that question so I guess mission accomplished.

[Dillydoodle]

$800 is not the upper end of the pricing scale for a corgi from a reputable breeder... in fact in my area a corgi sold from a REPUTABLE breeder with a spay and neuter contract ( UN BREEDABLE) start around $1100. My chryptorchid male on a neuter contract was $1200... and that is about right for my area of the country.

Katie's response was spot on.. leave the breeding to the ones who will spend the time and money to health screen and do their genetic research to make sure that what they produce are healthy, well tempered, and structurally sound/correct.

I would never get a puppy from a breeder who would allow just anyone to buy one of their puppies with an open contract , able to breed their dogs indiscriminately... to me that is not a responsible or reputable breeder. I wouldnt want to get a puppy that was not from health screened adults...

Emilie

[Katie Finlay]

Originally Posted by junkdna

I appreciate your concern but you give the impression of one who feels they are writing to an idiot who just got a male and a female corgi and wants to make puppies with no further preparations or research.

I do admit I come off strongly, and I have no intentions of making anyone feel like an idiot. However, I am an advocate for dogs, not their handlers.

My main concern is you breeding for your friends and family. Most people want a dog "just like yours." They can go to a reputable breeder and get their own Corgi, you don't have to breed a little for them. And many, many people back out in the end, even after the pups or born. That's why I asked, are you able to care for 12+ dogs? I'm not trying to be harsh, just realistic.

In terms of crypto - it may take as long as 12 months for testes to drop. The breeder may have assumed he was going to drop them, but I agree she should have said something and not sold him to someone who was trying to breed. I would expect her to pay the neutering vet bills regardless. However, she did offer to switch the pup out didn't she? But my opinion still stands that a reputable breeder would not sell pups to be bred by anyone any time.

[CardiGirl]

To the OP-

I have been on many forums for many years (although perhaps under many different names LOL) and I can tell you that the people here are some of the most laid back dog people I've encountered on the WWW.

In MOST forums, you would have been ripped apart by now for your breeding practices. The people here have offered you kind, helpful advice.

Here is my opinion- leaving the cost of the dog out of it, it seems as though the person that you purchased the dog from is not what I would consider reputable, champion lines or not.

I don't think anyone who encourages the willy nilly breeding of dogs is worth their salt. Frankly, she doesn't even know what dogs or bitches you'll be breeding to, so she obviously doesn't care about her own lines which tells me that I personally would never want a dog from her.

That's how you should feel too, IMHO.

Now, as for why you're breeding- I really don't like the reasons that you've chosen to breed. Not one time have I heard "Well, I'd like to improve the shoulder on my bitch so I'm breeding to male with a great front assembly" or "My bitch's rear looks a bit sawed off, so I'm choosing this male because of his rear angulation."

No, you're breeding "just because."

That's not really a good enough reason, especially when Corgis are one of the big puppy mill breeds.

I don't see anything that would make your dog of a higher quality then a puppy mill dog, quite frankly.

How's that for strong? I am nothing if I am not blunt.

If you want to breed, please spay and neuter your animals and start again.

You may want to start by getting an obedience title on your current pets. That would show those who are serious about breeding a good reason to want to give you a quality puppy. That shows you are serious about wanting a quality dog.

Then, you should research health concerns and corgi structure so that you can choose the best male and female to put together.

After that, you can choose a line of dogs that you are comfortable with and get your first show puppy.

Breeding comes wellll after that.

Good luck with your endevors. I hope you take to heart what you have been told and that you don't turn out to be "Just another back yard breeder" who is just in it for the cute puppies or the money.

[Katie Finlay]

CardiGirl is right. We are being pretty nice here.

The point is that you're breeding because your friends and family want a dog just like yours.

My only advice for you there is to go to a shelter and help with the dogs being euthanized, hold them, look into their eyes - because MANY of them were born because people wanted dogs just like their parents.

If they want a dog like yours - find a breeder who produces similar dogs. Even with very good breeding you will never replicate a single dog, just like you will never replicate a single person.

[LaRogue]

I was most concerned about the selling practices of the breeder who sells a cryptorchid animal and then expects that I will pay for the neutering cost of up to $270.

That's actually a very reasonable price in my neck of the woods. I've paid much more for a neuters where everything was where it was supposed to be.

Areas and breeders differ. Similar to what Emilie posted, in my area the range for a pet puppy, from a reputable breeder, is $800-$1200, with a spay/neuter contract. I've never had a cryptoid puppy, but it's my understanding reputable breeders here will generally sell the puppy (if they know) or give a refund (if they didn't) for the difference in the cost between a regular neuter and a cryptorchid neuter.

These things are usually spelled out, prior to buying the puppy.

[Westwood]

My Henry was a cryptorchid (unilateral), but that was one of the first things the breeder told me when I expressed an interest in him. I think your breeder should have known before she sold the puppy as a breeding prospect that the testicles were not down...I'm no expert but if the vet can tell, then I would think an experienced breeder would be able to as well. Henry's neuter was ~$400 but that did include his last round of shots and some blood work.

I don't see why Kevin can't be AKC registered...I had Henry registered with no problems (limited registration of course).

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by junkdna

I am hoping to get some input from some breeders and those that are experts in the purchase of corgis. I recently purchased a male corgi for $800, what I consider the upper end of the price range for a corgi.

Depending upon the area of the country that is an average to even low end of a non show potential puppy.

I told the breeder that I bought my female for $500, but she said her corgis come from champion stock and that is the price that they ask.

Did she explain what she meant by "champion stock" - both parents are champions or are there a couple of champions back in the pedigree somewhere? The later is the usual reality.

I specified that I wanted to breed him with my female for one litter. She charged extra for a non neutered dog.

Not a good sign, guess it is a new way to get around charging more for full registration.

I took my new male corgi (now named Kevin) to the vet to have him checked out. The vet informed me that Kevin is has bilateral cryptorchidism. He said that he cannot feel the testicles in the scrotum or the inguinum space.

At what age did you get him? How long was it after you got him that the vet examined him? The reason for the questions is ... when a reputable, responsible breeder who is involved in the show world sells a show potential male puppy, they know whether the testicles are descended or not. Things happen that one might get sucked up, Murphy and Mother Nature are tricksters, but nevertheless, they should be able to find the testicles at the time the puppy is sold.

After doing my research I have come to find that this disorder requires that my dog be neutered or risk torsion or testicular cancer (i.e. no breeding for Kevin). In addition, the cost to neuter is much more seeing they have to surgically enter the abdominal cavity.

Right, neuter surgery for undescended testicles is more like a spay.

I've also found out that cryptorchidism is a sex linked recessive chromosomal disorder. This means that the breeder's champion bred female is either homozygous (2 bad genes) or heterozygous (1 bad gene one good gene) for the disorder.

Well the theory is that cryptorchid is heavily influenced by the dam's side and it is a definite problem in the Pembroke breed. Without seeing the pedigree, I'll not take it for granted the dam is "champion bred."

I contacted the breeder about this situation and she said she would either replace the puppy (if we wanted to breed multiple litters) or offer to breed my female with one of her studs if we only wanted one litter. I have now had Kevin for two and a half month and come quite attached to him, cryptorchid and all.

Seems like a reasonable compromise if she doesn't charge you a stud fee.

As far as I can tell in the area of AKC registration, I can no longer register him because his genetic disorder. From what I can tell, Kevin's mother is also disqualified as she is definitely producing genetically defective offspring.

Wrong on all accounts. If the sire is AKC registered, the dam is AKC registered, the litter is registered with AKC and you have an individual registration slip in hand; he's eligible for AKC registration. Fill it out and send it in. All the AKC registration is that the sire and dam are the parents of that puppy. Shoot everyone of we humans are genetically "defective" in some way, same goes for dogs. Genetics play a part in upper arms being too short or tail set being too high, so following this assertion, those are genetically "defective" offspring too.

I want to keep Kevin, but I feel that she should refund some of the money she charged me for what was supposed to be a champion bred corgi and pay for the extra cost of neutering him.

Best In Show dogs can throw cryptorchid puppies. If the pedigree bears out that sire and dam are champions, then he is a "champion bred" corgi, however that does not mean that all puppies by or out of them need to be bred. Reimbursement of costs is something you need to take up with her.

After all, if she knew about the crytorchidism, she could never sell Kevin for that large price tag. The most she could do is sell it for a greatly reduced price or give it to a good home.

*IF* she knew, which I certainly hope someone breeding should have enough knowledge to find testicles in puppies, although from what I witness everyday on some forums, I don't take that for granted. It is just a part of what learning to be a breeder is whether someone is just breeding one litter to give to friends and family in love with their corgi or someone seriously committed and dedicated to the breed. She certainly could sell a cryptorchid puppy for $800 in some areas of the country, although most ethical breeders would be upfront and disclose that is why the puppy is being sold on a neuter contract.

What do you guys think I should do?

Talk further with the breeder and see what kind of compromise she offers.

As an aside as to Murphy and Mother Nature's hand in genetics, biology and stuff happening. Many years ago we brought down an absolutely stunning tan pointed tri Cardi boy to show for his breeder. Both testicles were there when he left. They were there when we had him looked over by our vet. First time in the ring, judge goes to examine - there was only one. Did an extra down and back walk to see if it would "juggle" back down. Nope. It was heartbreaking, but it happens.

Debbie

[gogogiraffes]

Just a price on Gizmo, he was 700, AND he had a dermoid. And he was a little smaller. And he, I was going to say almost, but he DID stop breathing for quite a while, when he was born. And I don't think I'd ever look back and say no, I'll take the healthy one. When I saw Gizmo, I said That's the one I want. I want your (then) red a while little boy. But as soon as I picked him up. She said, he has a problem. And I didn't even flinch at it.

As for the refund and such. I think Debbie is correct, IF you still want to breed after all of this, and she's not charging a stud fee. And you want to deal with this possibly happening again. And the pitter patter of up to and maybe more 52 feet. And being up every 2 hours like you have a child, only you have 12. I've chatted with people who have litters, and it's just crazy what they have to go through.

[junkdna]

I appreciate the large number of responses that have appeared. Some were pretty harsh but I feel they were harsh perhaps because I did not express in full detail of what I wanted to do.

Some posts, namely Cardigirl, stated that I should leave the breeding to the people looking to improve the breed and I should be attempting to improve the specific phenotypic characteristics of the line rather than just wanting a litter for friends and family.

1) I am not interested in becoming a breeder past one litter.

2) The people I am going to be giving puppies to will be neutering or spaying them as a condition of receiving the puppies. Therefore there will be no concern for degrading the corgi breed.

3) Kevin and Katlyn's parents had papers screening them for several genetic abnormalities. I do not have the list in front of me right now, but other than Kevin's cryptorchidism, they both have been checked by two very reputable vets and they passed with flying colors.

4) I assure you, I would not just breed any animals without having them checked out first, regardless of whether their pups would produce further puppies, which they will not. I have a degree in molecular genetics so I am no slouch in that area, but I do not intend to become a back yard breeder.

I appreciate all your input. It sounds like it is a consensus in this thread that this woman that sold me Kevin is practicing in some poor practices. I decided that I will pay for neutering Kevin myself and will not accept breeding for my female from her.

I own a web design, hosting and marketing company and will make it my mission to let everyone know who this breeder is and what she is doing. I am good at what I do anyone who searches for corgi breeders on the web will find my experience and the opinions of those I received input from like you fine people.

[Katie Finlay]

What I think the majority of us are trying to get at is that breeding for only one litter is backyard breeding. If you are not planning on being a reputable breeder in your lifetime, you should not breed period. Not even "just one litter."

There is no logical reason for you to produce any litters, even just one, because your friends and family want one. There are a number of great Corgi breeders who are producing quality dogs - why can't they just buy one of those? They don't want to spend the money? I just don't get it. I've said it before and I'll say it again - there are plenty of pets without having to breed for them. What makes your bitch and a sire you don't even know of yet so breeding worthy? IMO, breeding should be required for some seriously phenomenal animals.

It doesn't sound like we're going to change your mind, but I just hope you do consider what I said about helping with the euthanasia of shelter dogs. Most of them are there because of people breeding just one litter. I know you think you know what you're getting into, but relying on friends and family (you have 12 people who can provide a quality home for your puppies for the next 20 or so years?) will lead to disappointment, from what I know.

I wish you the best of luck.

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by junkdna

I appreciate the large number of responses that have appeared. Some were pretty harsh but I feel they were harsh perhaps because I did not express in full detail of what I wanted to do.

I think what you want to do was grasped with detail and accuracy. You got responses from seasoned people who have seen others come and go on this forum with the same plan. And what's more we/they've seen what has happened with the best laid and thought out plans.

1) I am not interested in becoming a breeder past one litter.

You and others of the same mindset make up 60% of AKC registrations. That's the bread and butter for AKC, not show breeders or commercial breeders. I'm not saying this as criticism or with attitude, just stating like a trivia fact.

3) Kevin and Katlyn's parents had papers screening them for several genetic abnormalities.

More details of what actual health screenings have been done and the ratings would be helpful for us to offer further suggestions of things you might want to look at.

I do not have the list in front of me right now, but other than Kevin's cryptorchidism, they both have been checked by two very reputable vets and they passed with flying colors.

Annnnnnnntttt - that's buzzer going off on a game show for the wrong answer. <VBG> No matter how reputable or great one's vet is, unless there have been the proper tests done for CHD, DM, vWD, CERF - then you don't know what might be passed on AND, some of the tests can only be done by vets certified for the specialty; a general practioner vet can't do them.

I appreciate all your input. It sounds like it is a consensus in this thread that this woman that sold me Kevin is practicing in some poor practices.

Please don't put words in my post. As one who does breed and place puppies as well as someone who places a lot of rescues; I'm well aware of the buyer not quite "getting" what they are told and revisionist history is not uncommon. Based on what you have said I would have concerns, but I haven't seen the contract (if there was one) and there are a number of other variables I would need to know.

I decided that I will pay for neutering Kevin myself and will not accept breeding for my female from her.

How old is Katlyn? At what age are/were you planning to breed her and Kevin? Are you going to look to buy another male to breed her to or are you going to try to find a stud dog to breed her to? If the latter what kind of qualities and health clearances are you going to look for in him?

I own a web design, hosting and marketing company and will make it my mission to let everyone know who this breeder is and what she is doing. I am good at what I do anyone who searches for corgi breeders on the web will find my experience and the opinions of those I received input from like you fine people.

I will strongly advise you against using anything posted on this site in this thread in your campaign against Kevin's breeder. I also recommend reading Corgeek's thread on when to neuter a bilateral cryptorchid and how at times her corgi's testicles are down. It is possible that the breeder found both of them when she sold him to you and they went back up after - it happens. As I said, been there, done that and got the t-shirt.

Price wise, depending upon the area of the country and the breeder, you did not over pay for him, even if he had been sold on a neuter contract.

I'd have to know a lot more before signing off that you were taken.

Debbie

[Vannette]

I bred my 2 so my boyfriend could have a puppy(way more to this, but I'm not going there).. We had 3 puppies. It probably cost at least 1500.00 for the tails, dew claws, worming, shots, microchips, moms xrays, vet visits, etc. I did keep them for 12 weeks. I loved them so much. I sold 2 under strict contract. For almost nothing. Waaaay waaay less than you paid. They pooped and peed all over the place. This was 3 years ago.
The day the puppies were leaving, they all ran out of the yard and mom got hit by a car. $2000.00 later, mom is ok...we were real lucky. If she wouldn't have gotten pregnant, which was my plan, none of that would have happened. Would have saved me alot of money. The boyfriend never helped with any of the expenses. He was here when Katie had them which was good because I'm not a good midwife.
I agree....let some one else do it. Just go hold and kiss em
Vannette