New to the group

[kgreen]

Good Evening Everyone, I wanted to take a minute to introduce myself. I am Kim Green and I live in Victoria Texas. I am owned by two corgis and 3 kitties. MDH and I have been married for 13 years and are high school sweethearts.

My two corgis are Carlie and Buggles. Carlie is a 2 year old tri-color PWC and my little doodle bug. She has been a member of the family since she was 3 months old. She has attained her CGC and is presently training in obedience and agility. Such a smart girl and so willing to please.

Buggles (CWC) has been a Texan and member of the family for 2 weeks. He was rescued from the streets of Ohio and placed into Cardigan rescue. He has come along way in the two weeks he has been with us. Each day is filled with new discoveries and all things good as he has not had that great of a past. Carlie and he get along famously as if they have been together all their lives. I am excited about this list and look forward to many discussions and learning opportunities.

Best Regards,
Kim Green

[Michael Romanos]

Hi Kim
My three year old red and white Pem, Taylor is also into agility. He's the only Welsh Corgi participating in agility in New Zealand and he excells at it. Females are better at agility than males, so your Carlie has a head start already.

It's great that you can take in another Corgi fellow. My Taylor has an eye on a one year old tri-coloured Pem, but he will have to wait until she is 18 months old before any relationship can be consummated.

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

Hi Kim
My three year old red and white Pem, Taylor is also into agility. He's the only Welsh Corgi participating in agility in New Zealand and he excells at it. Females are better at agility than males, so your Carlie has a head start already.

Here in the US, abilities seem to be equally divided between the two sexes. I know a male Cardigan won the USDAA 12" division (one of the most difficult of agility venues), although I believe the most titled agility CWC is female. In PWC's I believe the stats are pretty well divided out.



>It's great that you can take in another Corgi fellow. My Taylor has an eye on a one year old tri-coloured Pem, but he will have to wait until she is 18 months old before any relationship can be consummated.

What are the health tests commonly done in NZ before breeding? In the US eyes, hips and vWD are the "basics." Two is the general accepted age as that is when permanent hip ratings are given by OFA (our primary hip evaluation registry).

Debbie

[Michael Romanos]

Re agiility - I was referring to all breeds and non-breeds and an overall pattern - not in picking out one or two examples.
Re breeding - Corgis are not usually tested here for hip dysplasia prior to mating. When the parentage and grandparentage is well known and documented I don't suppose Corgi breeders in New Zealand traverse down the pathway you infer. Good idea to have Corgi pups tested for any possible eye defect before they go to new owners and generally checked for any other internal/external problems. New Zealand has perfected a method of testing pups for vision. It is the result of dogs bred for guiding the blind having possible vision impairment - especially Labradors. In some cases in the past it's been a little like the blind leading the blind with the guide dogs relying heavily on their other senses.

[glencorgi]

Michael wrote:
>Re breeding - Corgis are not usually tested here for hip dysplasia prior to >mating. When the parentage and grandparentage is well known and >documented I don't suppose Corgi breeders in New Zealand traverse down >the pathway you infer.

Interesting. In the US responsible breeders screen the parents for hip dysplasia (the hip x-rays, OFA and PennHip are the two main bodies which evaluate the x-rays), eyes (done by an CERF exam which can only be done by certified veterinary opthamologist) and vWD (unfortunately the DNA marker for that is not proving as reliable as first thought). Some also check thyroid, hearts and elbows. Cardigans are basically the same except for vWD which is not in that breed, but parents are tested for PRA in addition to the CERF eye exam. The PRA DNA marker has been a wonderful tool in the health of Cardigans.

>Good idea to have Corgi pups tested for any possible eye defect before >they go to new owners and generally checked for any other internal/external >problems. New Zealand has perfected a method of testing pups for vision. It is the result of dogs bred for guiding the blind having possible vision impairment

Many breeders also check eyes on puppies before the leave for their new homes here as well.

How big of an adjustment is going to be for you with no more "bunny butts" since docking is no longer allowed?

Debbie

[herdingdogs]

Hi Kim,
So you've got one of each corgi. Do you find any big differences in personalities between the breeds? I live in Maryland and the number of Pembrokes seem to far outnumber the number of cardigans.
Do you do any herding with your dogs? It's hard to find places in my area to do any herding.

[kgreen]

Yes and no. They play much differently. Buggles is so much bigger and kind of rares up on two legs to wrestle with Carlie. Carlie however has learned this and is elevating herself to this level when they play.

Buggles also seems a bit more laid back. Carlie is my little energiser bunny... The two are so cute together. They play so nicely together... For only having been together for 2 1/2 weeks.

CWC are extremely rare in this area as are PWC. People stop me all the time to inquire what kind of dog they are which is good, because I don't want them to get popular here. I only want folks who really want them for life to have them.

We are not enrolled in herding yet, but it would be fun as you know we have lots of cows in Texas HE HE...

[Michael Romanos]

Hi Kim
Don't be afraid to promote your Corgis and Corgis in general. More good can be gained from it than to keep it to youself or make it a little like it's a big secret. How do you think popularlty grows and from this comes clubs and quality breeders.

I am forever promoting my Pem, Taylor. He is already the best known Corgi in New Zealand and one of the country's best known dogs. Within the next two weeks he will have appeared on at least one TV channel, in at least several newspapers and mentioned on radio stations.

Good that you are showing an interest in getting your Corgis into a sport - herding would be excellent for them - and you.

[glencorgi]

Kim wrote: "CWC are extremely rare in this area as are PWC. People stop me all the time to inquire what kind of dog they are which is good, because I don't want them to get popular here. I only want folks who really want them for life to have them."

To which Michael replied: "Don't be afraid to promote your Corgis and Corgis in general. More good can be gained from it than to keep it to youself or make it a little like it's a big secret. How do you think popularlty grows and from this comes clubs and quality breeders."

Pembrokes have held the number 23 position out of 150 AKC recognized breeds for the last two years. Cardigans rose in popularity from #85 in 2004 to #79 in 2005. Popularity grows neither clubs nor quality breeders in the States. What does grow is increased interest by the commercial breeding industry, more Amish farmers adding the breed to their dogs as crops programs, more true puppy mill situations, more irresponsible breeders who see the popularity as something to cash in on. Anytime a corgi wins the group on one of the big televised dog shows, the next day the e-mails and calls begin to the breeder referral and rescue lines wanting one. The results are not quality bred corgis; rather corgis that one often has to travel back in time to recognize as corgis, corgis with health problems, temperament problems and in homes not well suited for the breed(s). So Kim's attempts to be a part of the LCS (Lesser Corgi Society <G>) I can support. I love both breeds of corgis and enjoy talking about them. But I also feel the responsible approach to take when someone inquires is to educate and be honest about them. They are not breeds for everyone, no breed is, so giving the negatives along with positives about the breeds is just the right thing to do.

There are probably a lot more corgis around than Kim realizes or is aware of yet. Texas is big <G> however there are two PWCCA affiliate clubs and a CWCCA regional club there. All three hold specialties annually as well as offer other activities throughout the year.

Debbie

[Michael Romanos]

Can't agree with Debbie.

Popularity brings in every kind of situation but that's the way the cookie crumbles. You either promote or demote. Pems have gone through a boom period in New Zealand - with Pems piercing heavily into the top twenty breeds - and at that time there were four strong clubs in NZ and more in the offing. Pems popularity waned and one club sank and the other three- well one of them had a ribbon parade (non-championship Corgi conformation show)a few weeks ago and I believe that there were only a turnout of four Corgis.
I am not the least worried about unprofessional breeders - ones who delve in it a little - but just the breeders with little or no integrity or honesty or interest in the common good of the breed.
I estimate there are 7000 Corgis or Corgi-crosses in NZ at present. The problem in NZ is that most Corgi owners are elderly and therefore at the wrong end of the age spectrum for conformation showing of their Crogis let alone getting them involved in dog sports such as agility. Then the Corgi breed clubs here do not promote anything else other than conformation showing and breeding. They are not only behind the times but their members are missing out on alternative activities. Corgi owners are mainly elderly because of the perception that Corgis, being a small dog (almost toy-like) are unsuitable for cool dudes and gals. On the back of my Pembroke Corgi tshirt is the phrase " Corgis are Cool."
If Corgis were not popular, then GoCorgis would not exist

[glencorgi]

Quoting Michael: "Popularity brings in every kind of situation but that's the way the cookie crumbles."

And someone is left to clean up all those cookie crumbs. Attitudes of this tone contribute to anti-breeder sentiment mandatory spay-neuter (MSN) legislation. (Typical language in MSN bills is ALL dogs and/or cats and even sometimes EVERY animal over 6 months age is required to be neutered. To own intact animals, the fees range from $50 on up per intact animal for an annual license. I can provide links to sample legislation, if anyone is interested.)

Michael also say: "You either promote or demote." I contend there are times and places for both. That is just part of being a conscientious, responsible owner. Not every individual who joins GoCorgis interested in a corgi should get one <IMO>. The example of individuals who perceive corgis as "small" dogs (almost toy-like) is an excellent example of a situation in which a corgi should not be placed - they aren't toy breeds.

A part of what Michael isn't factoring in is the cultural differences between NZ and the US when it comes to the breeds. In the US beginning in January there is a regional Pembroke club specialty almost every month, plus the National Specialty. Every weekend except for Christmas there are AKC conformation shows across the country. We have no shortage of opportunities to earn championship points. Now granted our system is different than the one in NZ.

The Performance Corgis (obedience, agility, tracking, rally obedience, with a touch of herding) list has nearly 700 members with 7 new members joining within the last 7 days. The Corgi Herders list has 190 members (3 new members within the last 7 days). In the US we are not seeing the problem you perceive in NZ.

Yes corgis are popular, that's would explain the 2 dozen Yahoo lists (at my last count) devoted to the breed(s). That is not taking into the different state lists for picnics and get togethers. I can name at least two other forums set up identical to GoCorgis. GoCorgis is just another one of many.

Debbie

[Michael Romanos]

There are conformation shows in NZ almost weekly too - and sometimes two or three at a weekend. But only a maximum of six Corgi specialty shows throughout a calendar year. Out population is 4.2 million - only the number that would rate as a reasonably large city in the USA. So I( think we are well served for dog shows if you have the money .Other regular dog sports here are agility, obedience, working trials and hunting trials.

The opportunites that people give their Corgis and themselves in the US, makes me envious. There are no dog breed clubs in NZ which presents for its members, multi sporting opportunites.

There are a lot of people who are frightened of promoting, publicising, marketing almost anything because they think there will be adverse results along with any positve outcomes, and I think Debbie is one of those.

[glencorgi]

Michael said: "There are a lot of people who are frightened of promoting, publicising, marketing almost anything because they think there will be adverse results along with any positve outcomes, and I think Debbie is one of those."

Debbie used to wear rose colored glasses and live in an ivory tower dog world like Michael. In the US one can no longer do that and at least I seem to be in good company. After the lessons learned when Disney released the 101 Dalmatian movies, it is now common for parent breed clubs to issue press releases and post statements on their websites about their breed and what one might see in the movie is not necessarily representative of the breed. With Disney's re-make of the Shaggy Dog being released, the Bearded Collie is just the latest to issue this type of disclaimer. Additionally, many breed fanciers and rescuers will often attend opening nights in order to do public education. Most parent clubs also have a statement prepared for after the major televised dog shows (such as Westminister) to post should their breed win Best In Show. John Q Public's impulse with a breed flavour of the day has taught us here some lessons the hard way.

Do I indiscriminately encourage any and everybody interested in getting a dog to get a corgi - no. Do I work breed fairs, do information booths, answer e-mails, questions on lists, talk to people about the breed(s) whenever I am out and about with any of the dogs and act as an ambassador for the breed(s); absolutely.

In 2005, 10,648 Pembrokes were registered with the AKC alone. That does not include the other registries or ones not registered with any organization. Michael's woes about the state of the corgi breed in NZ is not one we have in the US.

Debbie

[Michael Romanos]

If you are promoting Corgis. Great. You can't have it both ways. There are ample opportunites and directions one can take to reach the best possible results with a situation that's never going to be perfect. A large miniority of people don't carry the right attitudes. In the meantime, my message is to go out there and promote Corgis as much as you can and present to the public the most ideal level you can for the care of Corgis and for the prosperity of the breed.

People just need to look at my fellow and they know that he is not a backyard bred or an uncared for, unkempt Corgi. They know that he is treated as something special and deserves respect. When they say they would like a Corgi like mine, they understand that it means a lot of time and effort and attention to special needs. Unlike the USA, there are precious few New Zealanders - apart from recent immigrants from certain parts of the world - who don't know a Corgi when they see one.

[glencorgi]

Promote is defined as: 1) To raise to a higher position, rank, or class. 2) To further the progress or growth of : advance. 3) To advocate the adoption or use of. 4) To try to sell or popularize by publicity.
------
The first definition, well corgis do that naturally. .

Definition #2, IF I can do that by responsible breeding practices, utilizing the latest break throughs in science whether it be by new discoveries which provide new tools for breeding or medical care - then absolutely.

Definition #3, I do advocate adoption of rescues when the circumstances are right for that, refer to reputable and responsible breeders when that is the best course for a potenitally interested home.

Definition #4, I do publicize the services offered by our rescue group; the pros and cons of rescue; I do the same for reputable breeders. Corgis in the US already have the popularity, so publicity is not something that is really needed.

When I was in the vet's office on Friday with one of my corgis, I had two somewhat interesting encounters. One was with another corgi owner bringing their dog in for a checkup. Poor girl was extremely obese and with the help of the staff, we addressed the weight issue - tactfully. So in that case, I was promoting proper weight and health.

Now something maybe not encountered in NZ is breeding just because someone has two dogs of the same breed. A family came out with their Australian Shepherd puppy. I figured that was what it was - only due to color. It was the same color as a Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever and had some similar characteristics to that breed, but not quite right for it. I apprehensively guessed that it was the Aussie, due to logisitics of popularity and how randomly they are bred around here. It is sad to have to guess the breed of what is supposed to be a purebred animal and that is the case sadly for corgis here as well.

I promote responsible ownership, informed and researched decisions about breeds of choice.

Debbie