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[joy]

Hi, my name is Joy. I was looking for Cardigan breeders and found this. I don't have Cardis, I have two Pems. I just sold the last puppy out of my litter, and here's the dilemma. I don't dock my corgi pups tails, just don't think it's the right thing to do. To my surprise I've had huge demand for my pups because people WANT tailed pems! But I'm out of puppies and only produce 1 litter a year at most. So... I am trying to help a family, who've been approved for a puppy (I'm really picky about who my pups go to). They want either a Cardi or undocked Pem, and are looking for red/white preferably. They are in Eastern Washington, it's a perfect home. So anyone know of a breeder or puppy in the area or within driving distance of Eastern Washington? There's nobody in Western Washington, where I live.
Also, to pick up on another thread:
I also have 4 Swedish Vallhunds, a very rare breed. Because I was looking for specific bloodlines for future breeding possibilities, I imported one from Sweden at 8 weeks old and 2 from New Zealand at 13 weeks old. Not sure you can ship a puppy from anywhere further away than New Zealand. My puppies were in excellent health when they arrived. I'm not an authority, but my experiences were good and the puppies have turned out to be robust, healthy, happy adults. I also bought a puppy in Texas. As an alternative to shipping, I flew there and flew back with him in a carry-on. So this cost me my airfare plus $50 for an in-cabin pet fee. This is probably the most humane method of shipping, but they pup needs to be small enough to fit in an airline-approved carrier.

[Chip's Mom]

Welcome to the Board. I am owned by a nine month old pem named Chip who is a delight. He doesn't have a tail only a little stub that is oh so cute. He won best tail on a pem at our Corgi picnic here in TN. It's not to often that we have a breeder join our group but we do have a lot of young people join that are looking for puppies with no experience on buying a puppy, , I thought it would be helpful if you would elaborate on the questions that you would ask and what you look for in prospective buyers of your pups. Also, if you would explain the contract and the health quarantee a little that may also be helpful to some of our young people that are looking for puppies.

[Michael Romanos]

Hi Joy
I'm in New Zealand. It's amazing just how many dogs from NZ are exported every year to all corners of the world. Vallhunds are very uncommon in NZ too. I saw one at the NZ national dog conformation show recently and I often compete with my Pem against a Vallhund. This vallhund is faster than my Taylor but inclined to make more hurdling errors ( our hurdles are set a 380mm for mini dogs). But I don't recall ever seeing a really good Vallhund specimen here in NZ apart from maybe one who looked and performed acceptably. You must tell me what marked similarities you see between your Vallhunds and your Pems.
A lot of Americans seemed rapt with fluffy Corgis, so now we have Americans chasing after Pems with tails. I think soon all Pems will have tails which, to me, will be a major shame.
Have any of the puppies you have sold become conformation show dogs or competitors in agility.

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by joy

I am trying to help a family, who've been approved for a puppy (I'm really picky about who my pups go to). They want either a Cardi or undocked Pem, and are looking for red/white preferably.

There are more differences between the two corgi breeds than just the tail, and the two breeds are not necessarily interchangeable. So IF I were helping them, the first thing I would want them to make a decision about is which breed do they really want and proceed from there. By the nature of color inheritance in Cardigans, reds are not that commonly found and I don't know of any Breeders in the PNW who might have litters on the ground with reds in them just now.

Debbi

[joy]

Hi,
I'll try to answer all three postings that replied to mine.
First, the family I referred to do absolutely know the difference between Cardigan and Pem. They've owned both in the past. Their last Cardigan died about a year ago. They originally were not looking for a Pem with a tail, it was only after they inquired into my litter that they became entranced with the look. They also know red Cardigans are very difficult to find/get. Personally I don't like to think that people pick their forever pet because of the color, but we all know that's very common.
2nd, one of my corgi pups has been shown in local conformation shows. He's done well. His handler explains to the judge that he is undocked due to reasons of humanity. Most people who buy my puppies are not interested in showing or breeding. This is true of most people who buy docked puppies too, at least in my experience. I have two who are in higher levels of 4-H obedience and handling classes.
I also have two puppies who went through junior handling and agility training. They've competed in playday type events, with some success. I have two vallhunds in agility training, but we haven't competed yet--they're doing fine but I'm a slow learner. To me, there's no question of which breed is more suited to agility (vallhund), but that's really stereotyping, and one of my older corgis would have excelled in agility if I'd started her earlier. In her prime she was as quick (mind, body, and spirit) as any vallhund I've seen.
3rd, quite honestly I evaluate every potential family separately. Of course I'm looking for a suitable environment and dedication to providing the highest quality of care. But here's some issues I'm really stuck on:
TIME: I need to know that the family has an abundance of time to spend with a pet, and that they understand that this breed in particular really needs to be around people for the majority of their day. That's quite a commitment.
OTHER PETS: I want to know if this is a first pet, and I'm not excited about that. Yeah, you gotta start somewhere, but I don't like to think of my puppies as experiments. I want to know if there are other pets in the household. This can be bad, but it's usually good. I truly believe the happiest dogs have some sort of animal companion, it doesn't have to be another dog. My old hound was in love with a chicken and raised an orphan kitten. I also believe that families who are already pet-friendly, meaning their all-around household, will be more tolerant of a puppy.
THE ACTUAL HOME: Obviously I check to make sure there will be no chaining the puppy to the clothesline scenario. What really concerns me is a home that is right out of House Beautiful and a yard right out of Sunset Magazine. People with homes like that tend to crate and kennel their pets to make sure their homes and yards stay gorgeous. They want concrete-floored chainlink kennels, or space in a garage, or pets kept in the bathroom or a crate all day. SORRY if I'm unjustly stereotyping a few of you out there. I know there's no absolutes, but I have to look out for my puppies' best interests. I'd rather see my puppies go to a bit more "lived in" place. And yes, I do visit the home.
A NETWORK: This is THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO ME!!! Things happen that disrupt households, everything from divorce to a weekend getaway to new babies. What keeps the home life stable for a pet is a good network of family and friends who are pet-friendly and willing to help care for or house a dog or puppy if circumstances demand it. I have only excused this if I am able to provide a network myself, pet-sitting for them, and I do have two that I regularly pet-sit.
My contract is brief but to the point. It goes through a list of "must do's" for the new owner, grounded on providing quality care. It also stipulates whether the puppy can be used for breeding (most can't). I take a deposit on puppies that will be spayed or neutered, and refund it when proof of "speutering" is provided. On my part, I guarantee my puppies unconditionally. This doesn't mean I will pay vet bills if health issue occurs at some point--although I have done that too. It means I will buy the puppy back at full price, no questions asked, at any time, and I do mean any time for any reason. I not only offer this, but I demand that I have first right of refusal if the home is ever disrupted. I never want to see one of my former puppies in a shelter or rescue situation.
Last (my own comments). I thought it was interesting that breeders don't use this forum??? I wonder why not? I'm a very small breeder. I raised 6 females and 1 male corgi before settling on 3 females to breed--I spayed the rest and neutered my male before he ever reproduced. Then I spayed one of the females after her first litter--she had difficulty delivering and then produced a cleft palate. So often what look like outstanding puppies just don't develop into a dog that should be bred. I did not go after championships before breeding my females, but I had them evaluated by other breeders and I think I'm my toughest judge. I have produced a total of 16 puppies in 2-plus years, so this is nothing along the lines of a puppy mill. In fact, I just spayed the mom of my last litter, it was her second gorgeous litter and I figured she'd paid her dues. I plan to produce one more litter next spring with my other female. I breed because I LOVE raising the puppies, I love this breed, and I love seeing so many happy people with their new forever friends. I don't breed to make money, I don't think that's possible for an ethical breeder.
About the tails: How about it? Do most people prefer docked Pems? Do most of you know how the docking is done? The short of it is that they are docked (AMPUTATED) in the first few days of life, no anesthesia. I have watched puppies being docked. The puppies I've seen undergo the procedure suffered greatly. It's also not supported as a necessary surgery by either the American Humane Society or the American Association of Veterinarians. I decided to abide by their guidelines rather than AKC standards. And yes, my puppies are AKC registered. What I've found is that most people have never seen a Pem with a tail, and a surprising number of people think they're born without tails!!! I guess a few are? I've never seen one born stubbed. I have had a lot of support in my area, and yes, I hope the trend continues to grow. I'd hate to have my pinky lopped off in the name of fashion, the first joint on my pinky is about the same thickness of the joint at the base of a newborn Pem's tail.
I'm off my soapbox now. Thanks for reading this.
Joy

[Michael Romanos]

Joy - probably the major reasons why there are not more casual/small time/one-off Corgi breeders as members of Go Corgi is that they are not made to feel welcomed as they get the fifth degree thrown at them by many of the regular members who post. Some of the breeders have therefore gone into 'hiding.'

No major Pem breeder in New Zealand gets their puppies' tails amputated. They all use the 'rubber band' method of withering away the tail from about the third day after birth. This method, done correctly, does not allow the puppy to suffer and cause pain - there is a very temporary discomfort

You seem very much like giving a very fair deal to people who buy your pups and one which contains integrity and honesty without having to resort to a heavy handed contract which sometimes contains outs for the breeder in small print. The kind of comprehensive contracts that some people deal with in the USA are foreign to countries like NZ and Australia.

It is only the prominent and major breeders who make honest money out of breeding. One of the first articles I ever wrote about dogs was of a male Rottweiler from NZ that was shown successfully at Crufts and went on a winning campaign in Great Britain and finihsed up with several Best In Show titles. That cost the owners over $15,000 but at the same time they were getting $1000 per mating (stud fees). And the British female Rotties were lining up.

You must tell me, as a Pem owner/breeder and a Vallhund owner, any remarkable similarities between the breeds.

[Chip's Mom]

Hi Joy:

Thanks for answering my questions. Your answers were interesting. I found your answer especially interesting about other pets in the house. I always assumed that having other pets would be a deterent for getting a pup. I have 4 now and soon to have 5. Although our poor Lady has kidney disease and is 14 years old so we are not sure how much longer she will be with us. Jasmine, a ten year old rottie mix is very overweight and is a large dog so you never know. Long story on acquiring the 5th and that is posted all over in different threads.

As far as the tail docking - I had a corgi mix with a beautiful tail so either way would be fine with me although I can't imagine some of our fluffy butts having tails. Chip actually has a stub that is precious. (of course My Chip is precious anyway and I am not prejudiced LOL) I had a litter of puppies (years and years ago) that the vet docked their tails when they were tiny and I never did see the discomfort that you are talking about.

[corgimom]

Michael,

Thanks for the compliments to the "regular members" that post here.

We really aren't a bunch of Piranhas, so don't let Michael scare you into hiding
by his comments about us regulars.

Joy, it is obvious that you give much thought into the homes that you want your puppies to go to.

Some of us here have asked the very few breeders that have posted in the past certain questions regarding their breeding practices and what they do in regards to producing healthy pups. As a prospetive buyer who will be responsible for the pup for its entire life, I think those questions directed to the breeder are just as important as the breeder asking the potential adopter about what kind of life they will provide for the puppy.

It is my understanding that questions from both sides should always be welcome and encouraged.

Do you provide your new families with OFA and CERF documentation on the sire and dam and do you do testing for vWD? - These are some of the questions we have asked the previous breeders who have posted on here, and I don't think these questions are out of line or should send a breeder into hiding.

[joy]

I'm not put off by anyone criticizing breeding pracitices. PLEASE DO. Keep breeders honest and ethical. It's a big job that all of us have to contribute to. Me, as a breeder, albeit very small, and you all as consumers, those who buy purebred puppies.
Yes, I test my breeding stock for OFA, although I prefer PennHip. I also do CERF testing. I don't know of the other test listed, but am willing to learn and do this.
I want to produce the best puppies available, but am not willing to enter the show ring to prove this. WHY??? Well, have you been on the show circuit? It's a matter of matching the handler with the best reputation to the color of her dress or outfit (paisley does NOT go with Blue Merle and you'd better not wear red if you're showing a grey or brown dog!!).
I have trouble respecting a community that has trouble respecting itself, and I'm talking about the conformation show community.
Last thing, I have been asked the difference between a corgi an a vallhund.
Oh my gosh.
A corgi is a housecat. A vallhund is a landlord.
A corgi is devoted. A vallhund is devoted with clauses.
A corgi is trainable because they love positive affirmation. A vallhund is trainable because he/she is looking for another challenge or opportunity.
A corgi sees a limit (i.e. a 4-foot chain-link fence), and succumbs to that. A vallhund will find some way under, over, or around it.
Both breeds are people-crazy and very tolerant with young children.
Benefits of vallhunds over corgis: This breed is going to be more successful in agility and herding. This breed seems to have NO physical/genetic ailments (it's a relatively young breed, so we'll see on that), this breed is easier to care for and easier to groom. They're just high enough off the ground that they don't have the constant wet-belly syndrome that a corgi might have.
ON the corgis' side of the argument,
Corgis are much more placid. They are ready for a good game of ball or a to be taught to herd, but they're not losing sleep if it's not offered.
Corgis are not wanderers. At least mine aren't. They are on the porch whether I'm out there with them, or the front gate is opened or whatever.
The vallhunds, on the other hand, can NOT be let loose in our "big" yard if the front gate's not shut. They will A: Run next door and chase the horses. B: Get bored with the horses and go exploring the neighborhood. They are active and fit and can travel double-digit miles without thought, and then wonder how the heck to get home.
They are both herders (cattle) but are different in their life goals. I love my corgis, I love my vallhunds. If I had to make a choice, and thank heavens I don't, I'd probably stick with corgis because it's just easier to get along with them. But try to get me to part with one of my vallhunds.

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by joy

I don't know of the other test listed, but am willing to learn and do this.

How much research did you do before leaping into breeding Pembrokes? vWD is one of the basic health concerns and is even listed on the little pamphlet from AKC congratulating you on your new Pembroke puppy. IF consumers are aware of it, then breeders should definitely know of it.

I want to produce the best puppies available, but am not willing to enter the show ring to prove this. WHY??? Well, have you been on the show circuit? It's a matter of matching the handler with the best reputation to the color of her dress or outfit (paisley does NOT go with Blue Merle and you'd better not wear red if you're showing a grey or brown dog!!).

Yes I have been on the show circuit and all I am reading are cliche excuses. You are right paisley would be far to busy a background for most blue merles, although a cryptic blue might show up quite nicely against it. To explain to those who haven't been in the show ring, what one wants to do is to provide the best backdrop possible for their dog in the ring so the judge will be able to see the dog. One doesn't want to focus attention on themselves and detract from the dog. Color coordination is an element of this. For those who have exhibited in anything from quilt shows to soap box derbies, presentation is an element of what you do. I have worn red against a grey dog and it showed up very nicely - thank you very much. And for the record, there is much more to it than what color one is wearing.

I have trouble respecting a community that has trouble respecting itself, and I'm talking about the conformation show community.

More cliches to justify your position.

Last thing, I have been asked the difference between a corgi an a vallhund.

Interesting list of comparison between the Valhunds and Pembrokes. Some are in line with what other both breed households have reported, others are not quite on the mark. I know of a Cardigan/Valhund home as well and I'm not sure she would agree with all your observations. Personally, I don't see them as "rare" as you do and have known sources of them and seen them fairly regularly for at least 15 years or so in the eastern US. Ran into them at a UKC show I attended over the summer and there were some at the AKC show I was at a couple of weeks ago.

Debbie

[Michael Romanos]

Iy has only been in the last 10 years in New Zealand that ring handlers in conformation showing as a whole group, dress up for the occasion. So the days of gumboots and black singlets or jeans and a Tshirt are long gone. Men usually now wear ties - though I resisted this when I last handled in the ring. But let me tell you, Joy, that women have an advantage over the men in dressing up and looking glamorous apart from a few very flamboyant males who might be handling a toy breed or a Standard Poodle. It has probably always been the case that too many judges, judge aspects of the handler that shouldn't be of any consequence.

Thanks for giving me a well thought out piece on the differences between Valhunds and Pems. The one that Taylor and I often see at agility is not the friendliest of dogs with other dogs and prefers to be left alone but doesn't mind in the least human company.