Hi from Houston

[Michael Romanos]

I would not encourage owners to leave a Corgi puppy alone for 8-9 hours on a daily basis nor would I want to sell a puppy to a person who would do this. Refer to Go Corgi's Mission Statement.

[Bayoucorgi]

Liam lives in a mixture of inside loose, inside confined in the bathroom or laundry room, outside (in our fenced yard), and in his crate depending on our schedule, the weather, and what's going on. We try to minimize crate time to sleeping time and when no one can watch him. There are days when my husband is traveling and I'm at work that he might have to stay in his crate for 9 hours. He is in there with his Kong and a Nylabone and mostly he sleeps. Today he is in the bathroom because I will be gone 11 hours and I want him to have a little walkaround room during that time.

We got him at 8 months and his previous owners kept him in a crate for 22 hours per day. He wasn't warped or weird. I don't advocate that much time and that's why he was sent to rescue.

If we didn't work, go to various meetings, have kids' sports practice, social life etc., I guess he could live like a free prince and have run of the house all the time. The cats would HATE that. But we do have people life. He has 3 kids to love, 2 adults who play with him all evening, 2 cats to harass, a "girlfriend" (beagle mix from down the street who comes for play dates), regular trips to Petco for toys and treats, has top quality food, great vet care, herding training, walks and swims and beach trips. He is a beloved prince who sometimes has to wait in his crate.

So an adolescent to adult dog can be crated if necessary. And still live happily ever after.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

I would not encourage owners to leave a Corgi puppy alone for 8-9 hours on a daily basis nor would I want to sell a puppy to a person who would do this. Refer to Go Corgi's Mission Statement.

Ok the mission statement says: "FOR THE PROMOTION OF CORGIS GENERALLY, AND FOR INFLUENCING EXCELLENCE IN THE CARE AND ATTENTION GIVEN CORGIS. FOR THE FELLOWSHIP AND SUPPORT OF CORGI LOVERS."

First this is not a binding statement by any means. It was written by YOU? And you IMO are not an expert in all things corgi. You are not a breeder.

Breeders adhere to their own ethics and those of any clubs they may belong to if they do. A responsible breeder does not have to belong to a club.

I would not say that a corgi was not reciving excellent care because his owners had to work and he was alone during the day. Nor would I use that as the only reason to not sell someone who could otherwise provide a good home a puppy. There are ways to manage this and ways to do that with out having someone else come in to help care for the puppy.

Dogs are not children and do not require babysitters or day care. Many, many owners have over the years have raised puppies, corgis as well as other breeds and have left them alone during the day. And surpirse! The dogs did just fine, and were not abused or neglected in any way.

I think it is wrong of you to impose your way and ideas as the only way. There are many correct ways of rasing dogs. What you do works for YOU, it may not work for someone else. I evaluate each owner I place a puppy or dog with on a case by case basis.

I think it is wrong for you to imply that anyone who has a puppy and has to leave them alone while they work is providing less than execllent care.

And sometimes ideal and excellent are not possible. Sometimes good enough is just that good enough.

Peggy

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by taflar

First this is not a binding statement by any means. It was written by YOU? And you IMO are not an expert in all things corgi. You are not a breeder.

Ok, I think I need to explain myself a bit. When I think of an expert I think of someone who has lived dogs, bred and raised multiple corgis.

I have owned whippets, one passed away at age 16, the one we have currently is 15. We have shown them, lure coursed with them (NOT live game), but I do not consider myself an expert in whippets.

I have owned and have a sheltie now. I show them with my friend and have traveled with many. I have been around shelties since the early 90's. I do not consider myself an expert in shelties.

We have also owned a Golden, a keeshond and a scottie. I do not consider myself an expert in those breeds either.

We also own a cardigan and have owned a couple others, but I am still learning about cardigans. They have much in common with Pembrokes so I am a bit ahead there on the learning curve, but I am not an expert in Cardigans yet either.

I own and have owned cats since the mid 80's and had a cats in my childhood, I know a lot about cats but I do not consider myself an expert in cats either.

We also have a parrot and an iguana, also not an expert on those.

So, when I say Michael is not an expert in corgis, I believe that because he has only owned 4 corgis I believe. IMO, not enough experience.

People I consider to be dog experts or specific breed experts have raised dogs from puppyhood to old age. Several of them, and they have bred and raised puppies. They have read about their breed and dogs in general. They talk with other breeders and experts. They have attended seminars. They are usually active in dog clubs (and there is no corgi club in Utah, not enough intrested people yet, but I do and have belonged to other clubs.)

I consider myself to be an expert in corgis and in dogs in general. But not an expert in breeds other than Pembrokes.

Debbie I consider an expert in both breeds as she has had extensive experience and learning in both breeds of corgis. I know many other people in corgis and other breeds that I do consider to be experts in dogs and in thier chosen breeds.

So, when I say I don't consider Michael an expert that is my reasoning.

And I by no means know everything there is about corgis. I am still learning. We should all be learning and willing to learn new things. IMO, when I stop learning it's time to get out of dogs.

Peggy

[Michael Romanos]

Peggy - you are not an expert. and your arguments are sometimes flawed.
No, I do not consider it a mark of excellence to leave a puppy alone daily during normal daylight hours for many hours on end.
Just to clarify Go Corgi's Mission Statement. It was offered up for imput to Go Corgi members and finished up in its present form from the work of two Go Corgi members. It has been adopted for our site with gratitude by the owner/administrator of Go Corgi.
Another clarification, I have owned six Corgis not four (I don't know where Peggy got this information from). In any case, Peggy, again your arguments are flawed. It is not a numbers game nor if you run a registered kennel that makes one knowledgeably experienced. It is effort of thought, word and deed. So you can be a one Corgi owner (and don't forget Pems are not quite Cardis) and have as much knowledge and commonsense about Pems or Cardis as anyone. And by the same token, one does not even need to own or have owned a Corgi in order to become a Corgi specialist.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

Peggy - you are not an expert. and your arguments are sometimes flawed.

I didn't say I was perfect. Your arguments are often flawed. And just because you disagree doesn't mean my argument is flawed.

And yes, I do consider myself an expert in dogs and corgis. And so do many other breeders.

No, I do not consider it a mark of excellence to leave a puppy alone daily during normal daylight hours for many hours on end.

Like I said it may not be ideal but it's not neglect or abuse. Many puppy owners have to do that and the puppies are just fine.

To say that it should never happen is wrong IMO.

Just to clarify Go Corgi's Mission Statement. It was offered up for imput to Go Corgi members and finished up in its present form from the work of two Go Corgi members. It has been adopted with gratitude by the owner/administrator of Go Corgi.

I'm not saying it's bad, just saying that it's not binding, not like when someone signs a code of ethics with a club. And if not followed one could lose membership and endorsement in the club. It's just a statement of an "ideal". And IMO, if someone on this forum leaves their puppy at home while they work they should not be made to feel that they are providing inferior care.

Peggy

[corgimom]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

And by the same token, one does not even need to own or have owned a Corgi in order to become a Corgi specialist.

I honestly don't know how anyone could become a "Corgi specialist" without having hands on experience with them. That's like me reading anything and everything about sewing and trying to teach a class, but never took a stitch in my life.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

Another clarification, I have owned six Corgis not four (I don't know where Peggy got this information from).

Ok, not fair to edit your post AFTER I respond. And someone on this list told me that. Sorry, 6, so two more.

In any case, Peggy, again your arguments are flawed. It is not a numbers game nor if you run a registered kernnel that makes one knowledgeably experienced.

No, but with numbers comes experience. It's not just numbers as I explained.

And no I do not have a "registered" kennel nor do I want one. That is another thread and long explination. Registered/liscened kennels are usually puppy mills or commercial kennles. I am a hobby breeder.

It is effort of thought, word and deed. So you can be a one Corgi owner (and don't forget Pems are not quite Cardis)

I am well aware of that, and never said they were.

and have as much knowledge and commonsense about Pems or Cardis as anyone. And by the same token, one does not even need to own or have owned a Corgi in order to become a Corgi specialist.

IMO, anyone who does not own a corgi cannot be a speicalist or expert. And yes, some people have more common sense than others, that usually makes them good owners, but does not an expert make.

I still say no matter what you think or yourself or how many articles you write, I don't consider you an expert. And I know of several people on this forum that will agree with me and my idea of an expert.

Peggy

[Michael Romanos]

Linda - This will create wonderful arguments. But here goes, There are people who have never played a certain sport yet became GREAT leading coaches of that sport or GREAT leading referees/umpires. There are people who have played a certain sport at a low level yet become GREAT leading coaches, referees/umpires. And so to dogs. You (not you personally) can become a specialist, an expert, a thoroughly knowledgeable person about a certain breed of dog without having owned one or having only spent a little time with one.

[Bayoucorgi]

Hey you two! Didn't I break you up on another thread? Don't want to be bossy but want to gently ask you to fight it out privately. I like to go out and read about corgis. Not read an on-line snit. Gosh knows I listen to enough of that stuff with my 3 kids or Liam and the cats. This kind of bickering is not good for Go Corgi.

I crate. Always have and always will. I am not a bad dog owner. Liam's previous owners crated him for 22 hours a day with breaks. That's why they gave him up to rescue. Some breeders or rescues might not place a dog with me. That is their choice. They would be overlooking a great home. But if that's what they feel comfortable with, then that's how it should be.

Liam was in the bathroom today for 11 hours. He's 14 months old so not technically a puppy. Not my ideal day for him. But he barks outside. My husband is in Chicago on business. I work at a hospital an hour away. My son had baseball practice and that's real life today. Liam had his breakfast and toys. I didn't crate him because I don't feed in crates. When I got home I played with him, took him to get milk and gas (a car ride yippee!!!), took a short walk to get the mail, and we'll snuggle before he goes to bed. So is he neglected? Not hardly. Big picture.

IMO (love that abbrev) numbers do not an expert make. I only OWNED a few more dogs than Michael in my 28 years in my previous breed. I kept most of my dogs their whole lives and didn't believe in having a kennel-full that didn't get personal attention. Some breeders do, just not my thing. But I did more with 4 or so of those dogs than most people do in a lifetime. I rescued over 300 and learned more about temperament, bad breeding, contracts, placements, interviews, structure, soundness, and a million other things than I would have if I had bred 50 litters instead of 5. So I didn't own 300 dogs, but I learned a LOT from them. And there are puppy mills all over who have bred hundreds and know NOTHING.

Let's get back to the theme of this thread - opinions on whether a corgi might fit with Dave's friends. Maybe yes, maybe no. Not who's an expert. I'm NOT.

[corgimom]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

Linda - There are people who have never played a certain sport yet became GREAT leading coaches of that sport or GREAT leading referees/umpires.

Give me a name of someone in the USA who has become a "great leading coach" of a particular sport they have never played even in high school or college - Please don't mention someone in New Zealand; I don't keep track of your sports there.


Sorry Bayoucorgi; I just had to ask and I will end it here.

[fido]

Welcome to the forum! We are also in Houston! We have a 14 month old Pem, Buddy. He's great on long walks w/ short running spurts such as interval exercising.
When the heat picks up, we stay on neghborhood paths or greenbelts as the concrete gets pretty hot on his paws (we also go in early am, before 8 or in evening after 7 to reduce heat exposure). We also use a cooling bandana that is soaked in cool water overnight and expands and, of course, tote water with us. There are some good dog parks that disraeli passed on:
The Houston Dog Park Association
The Woodlands Dog Park Club

[Michael Romanos]

Linda doesn't fight. She questions.

Linda - I am not going to entertain you with names but there have been these kind of sports people in many countries over time since before the 19th century.

I could set up a programme for people who have never owned a Corgi and from among those people there would emerge exceptionally well versed people in Corgi management and knowledge. Some of these people could already have a good understanding of Corgis through their qualifications in the conformation judging arena.

[tandemgal]

Hi Dave,

deleted by T-Gal

[fido]

Here! Here! BayouCorgi!!

What might be helpful when discussing hot topics on the forum, is to keep statements as informational versus personal. At times, there seems to be a flare up of attacking, personally critical statements used to justify opinions when at different ends of a topic. The tone of the thread can start to become mean-spirited versus informative.

Based on the information presented, we have gleaned excellent advice/information from Peggy, Linda, Debbie, Michael and each other. However, we all must evaluate that information based on concensus of fact and reasoning (here, internet, vets, books, etc.). Personal citiques bog down the flow of shared ideas. Critiquing research, body of data, studies--GREAT! Long , live critical thinking and intellectual discovery!

and to jump in:
1) what is not good for a great number of dogs may be tolerated/appropriate by any one dog/owner. indices of health, development, stamina, longevity, temperament, learning/training, humane/loving treatment, etc all must be continually evaluated.

2) coaching is not quite being an expert. coaching involves a limted aspect of the athlete (often a whole team of professionals are involved with different specialties-nutrition, training, sports injury, health, psychology, family issues, scheduling, promoting, managing, financials, etc). An expert has to handle much of this. In the dog world, well, as a total novice, I think there is significantly more areas and knowledge required to be an expert (especially in breeding and placing these wonderful dogs with good owners) and those qualifications are ususally set by the expert and their peers. And in any field, experts can have very different opinions.
(Mark Spitz's (winner of 7? gold medals at one olympics) swimming coach had never been a swimmer. Therefore, he did not have preconceived ideas of the limits of a swimmer-thus pushing Mark further and further than what others expected of their athletes. However, he did not consider himself an expert in swimming, but in coaching. )

So, at times, agree to disagree? and please state reasons versus personal criticques. Thanks!!