From South Dakota

[Michael Romanos]

Well, if the stud dog owner's prospective list of puppy buyers is not needed then the pups will be well and trully accounted for when new owners are sought. That's one problem out of the way.

[LaRogue]

Originally Posted by glencorgi

Depends upon what level of "professionalism" you are dealing with, owners of dams will take referrals from stud owners, but stud owners don't have any say one way or another if the breeder (owner of the litter) decides to not place w/them. Debbie

Debbie, I understand and agree with the points you are making in this case. My question may be regarding one of the different levels of "professionalism" you mentioned. I thought one of the reasons for co-breeding and co-ownership was to give the stud dog owner more control in what happens with the puppies/dog, along with sharing financial responsibility, and recognition. If you co-bred a dog, wouldn't both parties have to sign to transfer ownership of the puppies to the new owner and wouldn't the stud dog owner be able to add some requirements for placement into new homes?

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

Well, if the stud dog owner's prospective list of puppy buyers is not needed then the pups will be well and trully accounted for when new owners are sought. That's one problem out of the way.

Stud dog owners don't provide a list of puppy buyers. How many of your corgis have you actively had stand at stud? Even if one of your boys was used by his breeder, the circle of Breeders you would be traveling and dealing with is far different than what the proposed situation is here. So unless you have actively bred, had a dog at stud, whelped and placed puppies, an idea or vision of how things should be can totally miss the mark as your points in this discussion have illustrated.

Even if someone has a waiting list for puppies of two dozen names doesn't mean that a one of them will actually buy a puppy by the time the litter is ready to go home. Happens all the time. People change their mind, get another dog/puppy or were never serious to begin with. Responsible Breeders hang on to the puppies until the right home comes along, that's a part of the Code of Ethics they go by for one, and just part of being a Breeder and we know that. Now where this differs from what is being played out before us is, the motivation for breeding here is so their dog can have some "fun", provide corgi puppies for "everybody" and pocket cash. Via my rescue position, I had a phone call after Christmas wanting to know what to do with her leftover Christmas puppies, the ones out of a litter she had ready to go "just in time for Christmas." Where was the stud dog owner here? They'd pocketed the stud fee and gone their merry way.

Debbie

[MyPemCharlie]

Originally Posted by glencorgi

Even if someone has a waiting list for puppies of two dozen names doesn't mean that a one of them will actually buy a puppy by the time the litter is ready to go home. Happens all the time. People change their mind, get another dog/puppy or were never serious to begin with. Responsible Breeders hang on to the puppies until the right home comes along, that's a part of the Code of Ethics they go by for one, and just part of being a Breeder and we know that. Now where this differs from what is being played out before us is, the motivation for breeding here is so their dog can have some "fun", provide corgi puppies for "everybody" and pocket cash. Via my rescue position, I had a phone call after Christmas wanting to know what to do with her leftover Christmas puppies, the ones out of a litter she had ready to go "just in time for Christmas." Where was the stud dog owner here? They'd pocketed the stud fee and gone their merry way.

Debbie

I was on a waiting list at TTS Corgis, but like you said I ending up getting Charlie instead of waiting for a higher "pet quality" dog. I've still been watching the TTS website. The breeder kept her two show/breeding prospects for herself. She placed one puppy fairly quickly, but the fourth puppy took 5 months to place.

The two puppies she did place were sold with a spay/neuter contract, and those dogs would be better dogs than what the majority of us own with their quality pedigree. I think people selling without Limited AKC Registration are doing a disservice to the breed.

I saw the Rottweiler breed get ruined, not with line breeding from responsible breeders, but with breed popularity and increased backyard breeding with no attention for breed conformity or temperament. Everyone and their (AKC) dog started producing huge, sick, ill-tempered Rottweiler's in their backyard. In the last ten years, the breed has fallen from #2 to #17 in popularity. Why? Lots of buyers (and the public at large) were injured by dogs with poor temperament, and other buyers had extreme vet bills dealing with hip dysplasia and other health problems in dogs who were often twice the size of the standard. People have slowly quit recommending the Rottweiler as a sound working dog with a patient, even temperament.

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by LaRogue

I thought one of the reasons for co-breeding and co-ownership was to give the stud dog owner more control in what happens with the puppies/dog,

The stud dog owner isn't the "breeder." Only the owner(s) of the dam is/are the breeder(s). Now if the stud dog owner(s) also happen to own/co-own the dam, then they are the breeder(s). For AKC litter registration, only one of the co-owner's of a stud dog signatures is needed in order to register the litter.

along with sharing financial responsibility, and recognition.

That all can be a part of it.

If you co-bred a dog, wouldn't both parties have to sign to transfer ownership of the puppies to the new owner

Not necessarily on a co-bred dog, depends on if it is still co-owned; on a co-bred litter (owners of the dam), then all signatures of owners are required to transfer ownership to the new owner.

and wouldn't the stud dog owner be able to add some requirements for placement into new homes?

Yes and no. What we had in a stud contract on a dog I co-owned to cover any puppies being produced was a second right of refusal clause, should the breeder (owner of the dam) not be able to take a puppy back, we would be contacted and we would take responsibility for the puppy. We also asked for a list of the homes the puppies were placed into, not as a control or say in the placement, but just to be there for those owners and the puppies so they wouldn't fall through the cracks should something happen. The list of new owners was met with some resistance from the dam's owner. Now there are a lot of stipulations that can be put in a stud contract, but the more controlling and invasive they are, the less likely the stud will be used and even less likely they can be enforced. One just has to be VERY careful with whom they deal and the standards and ethics of the other party.

This is all probably as clear as mud, I'm guessing. We can take the last litter I am a co-breeder on as an example. There were three puppies. We'll take the female first. Vera was sold to a show home in New York. I had to sign, along with the other two co-owners her individual registration slip in order to transfer ownership to her new owner. I still co-bred her, but I am no longer an "owner" on her. Now with the boys, BJ and Bruin I co-bred and am still a co-owner on. BJ doesn't live with me, Bruin does. If one of the other co-owners wants to use either of the boys at stud, then my signature is not required for the litter registration papers. I will stand by the second right of refusal clause.

Now let's say Peggy decides she wants to breed her Cassidy to my Bruin. Cassidy is co-owned, so Peggy has to get the other co-owners to agree with her choice of stud dog; IF they don't and she breeds to him anyway, one of the other co-owners might not sign the registration slips and the litter won't be eligible for AKC registration. So we do the breeding which is going to happen one of two ways. Peggy will ship Cassidy to me and I do the breeding and ship her back to Peggy; OR we will ship fresh chilled semen to Peggy and she will handle the breeding on her end. In the stud contract, I will define a viable litter (2-3 puppies usually after 2 or 3 days will constitute a litter), include the second right of refusal clause, and probably ask for the names of the new owners; there'll be a little more in there, but those are the basics. The stud fee will be $XXX or I might want a puppy back in lieu of the stud fee and then we'll discuss whether I will first or second or third pick, depending upon if Cassidy's breeder(s) may be getting a puppy back and which pick their's is, etc. IF the breeding doesn't take, I can offer her a repeat breeding.

Now I am going to be in contact and wanting to get confirmation the breeding took; I'm going to wait with baited breath when the puppies are born to see how many and what they look like and if there are any health problems, etc. I'm going to want to know what my boy is producing. Peggy will then register the litter, pay me my stud fee, I'll sign the litter registration form and at that point, I "could" walk away. I've fulfilled my "basic" responsibilities as a stud dog owner. But, I am going to want pictures, I'm going to want to hear how the puppies are growing up, if Peggy is pleased and Cassidy's co-owners are as well. I'm going to want to hear about how much the family Peggy placed a puppy with loves their new puppy and that it just passed PuppyK; I'm going to want to hear about how another one just got its first leg in agility and how one might have just got its first points in conformation. These are my "grand- puppies" and I'm going to have a vested interest and connection with them.

This is all different than someone who advertises stud services on some internet forum or at the feed store. The motivation there is collecting $XXX for a stud service and perhaps getting a puppy back so they can make more puppies for $.

Debbie

[LaRogue]

This is all probably as clear as mud, I'm guessing.

LOL! Yes it is, but your kind and simple explaination went a long way towards helping me better understand! I have always been curious when I see 4-5 people listed in the dog show programs(?) and also because one of Pip's parents was co-bred, but not co-owned. For some reason, I thought the two mostly went together. Thanks for taking the time to explain!

[Michael Romanos]

In reality Debbie, a breeder can choose or not choose whatever opportunities are availed and there are many ways to skin a cat ie arrangements between breeder and other party/parties. I do think this subject had a shorter answer than what you have provided.

[Chip's Mom]

I thought Deb's answer was interesting, it gives a person more insight into the steps taken for breeding.

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

In reality Debbie, a breeder can choose or not choose whatever opportunities are availed and there are many ways to skin a cat ie arrangements between breeder and other party/parties. I do think this subject had a shorter answer than what you have provided.

IF the litter is eligible and going to be registered with AKC then there are no short cuts about the signatures. UKC registration will probably be about the same. All bets are off with any of the other registeries.

My more lengthy answers were geared to those who had asked questions wanting explanations of matters that weren't quite clear to them. It is true that there can be variations on arrangements between breeders and stud owners (who are usually breeders themselves), but the example I gave is pretty much the norm and the basics. There's going to be a stud contract with the responsibilities and expectations of both the stud owner and the dam owner spelled out. I can take it a bit further. As an owner of a stud dog I can set criteria that has to be fulfilled by the owner of a female who might want to breed to my dog. I can require the b*tch be major pointed or even finished. I can require a long list of health clearances be provided before I will even consider doing a breeding with her. If anyone has ever seen the line in an ad or on a website: "Stud service available to approved b*tches" then that is what is entailed in that. A female doesn't meet those requirements, I'm going to turn down the breeding - which I can also do anytime I'm approached about a breeding.

But I did include the short answer(s). If you are meaning the over the fence, horse board, and internet offerings of stud services then there won't be any contracts, requirements or expectations and the owner of the stud dog wannabe is going to have a lot more to be concerned about than whether the puppies all get homes and will have even less influence on their placement than in anything I spelled out. That's real life here in America.

Debbie

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by LaRogue

I have always been curious when I see 4-5 people listed in the dog show programs(?)

Now if that dog is a special (finished Champion) and being campaigned, some of those names will more than likely be backers. The backers are the pocket books. They pick up the entry fees, pay handler expenses, pay for advertising in the big show magazines, etc.

Debbie

[LaRogue]

I thought Deb's answer was interesting, it gives a person more insight into the steps taken for breeding

.

I thought so too, and I'd add informative and educational.

Now if that dog is a special (finished Champion) and being campaigned, some of those names will more than likely be backers.

I see now. Yes, it was a Speciality (the first one I've been to and a great time watching beautiful corgis all day long) where I noticed this. It makes more sense to me now. Thanks for all the great info.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by LaRogue

.I see now. Yes, it was a Speciality (the first one I've been to and a great time watching beautiful corgis all day long) where I noticed this. It makes more sense to me now. Thanks for all the great info.

Not sure what Debbie said was clear so ...
When Debbie mentioned a special, that just means a dog that's a champion. Shown at all breed shows not just specialities.

Speialities have "class dogs" too. Dogs that are still working on getting enough points to become a champion.

Peggy