Hello I am new!

[aprilmusgrove]

I am the proud owner of a 6 month old corgi, Shorty. He is a hand full, but such a joy. We just love him. We lost our little angle Nikki a Pekingese, in April. She was my heart. We have no children other than our pets. My Nikki was spoiled she had to have a pacifier when she went to bed. Shorty has been an experience for us because he personality is SO different from Nikki. He's such a character. We laugh every day at something he's done. He's really been the medicine we needed to heal that void after losing Nikki & he's filled that void plus some. I do have a question are they a part of the terrier group. I didn't think they were, but a lady I work with agrued me up & down & said they were. So can someone clarify that for me.

[Michael Romanos]

Hi April
My mother had a Pekingese which she dearly loved named Ying. and I attempted to show Ying at Conformation Shows- and of course Pekes need a lot of off-ring effort for showing in their grooming and such. But Ying was too shy and wouldn't move in front of a large audience so after a couple of attempts, I gave it away and stuck to showing Pembroke Corgis which are a lot more manly and outgoing. I did like Ying though and Pekes are the one breed where a walk up and down half an average street is about all the daily exercise they need. Not like those hiker Corgis, eh.

Your lady acquaintance is absolutely wrong. There is nothing about a Corgi that's Terrier. The Pem's are part of the Spitz family of dogs with the other half of them being the same as the ancestory of the Cardigan Corgi.
Corgis are farm working dogs with their major farming stake being in their ability to herd. There is simply no Terrier aspect (personality etc) to a Corgi that I can think of - just by looking at them one knows instinctively that they don't bear comparison. At the conformation shows in New Zealand the Terriers are one of seven grouping of dogs. Corgis are in the group called Working Dogs along with German Shepherds, Collies, Shelties etc. - no dogs in this group have smooth bodies or are wire-haired.

[glencorgi]

[quote=Michael Romanos]
Your lady acquaintance is absolutely wrong. There is nothing about a Corgi that's Terrier.

Well not exactly accurate. When Pembrokes were first shown in the United States they were a part of the Terrier Group. They were later moved to the Working group from which the Herding Group was split.

>The Pem's are part of the Spitz family of dogs with the other half of them >being the same as the ancestory of the Cardigan Corgi.

Not according to some of the early histories I've read. It is believed among some that they were interbred with some terrier for ratting purposes. And except for the limited time the two breeds were interbred (and there isn't much evidence that was done extensively) I've not come across the two corgis sharing common ancestry.

>Corgis are farm working dogs with their major farming stake being in their >ability to herd.

Generally speaking they were required to be all round farm dogs. They guarded boundaries, ratted and dispensed of other vermin, brought in stock and played with the Welsh farmer's children.

>There is simply no Terrier aspect (personality etc) to a Corgi that I can >think of - just by looking at them one knows instinctively that they don't bear >comparison.

Well I can think of one - attitude. These are roughly 25 pound dogs bred to move cattle (and from the description of the Welsh Blacks given by a Welsh Cardigan breeder not particularly easy stock) and the corgis won. That in itself pretty much sums up the breed.

Debbie

[Michael Romanos]

Hi Debbie
I think what you are saying is mostly rubbish.
The American canine organisation got it wrong in earlier days before they corrected their mistake.

[glencorgi]

If you care to dispute the historical writings on the breed(s), then that is your perogative. However, I'll chose to trust Clifford Hubbard, Thelma Gray,
the documents in Geraldine Rockefeller Dodge's scrapbook, Deborah Harper and a host of other writers who have developed and researched the breed plus the breeder/judges whom I have had the opportunity to meet and learn from.

In looking at the corgis of today, especially the well-bred ones, I can understand how one might not see any terrier in the style today (although I encounter some terrier like attitudes - feisty and some are pretty skilled mousers). But if one looks at pictures of the early dogs like Rozavel Red Dragon or Little Madam or even "Princess" Elizabeth's early corgis, it doesn't take a stretch of one's eye to see why AKC made the original call of which group they placed the Pembrokes in, especially coupled with temperament then. I suspect I see a wider variety of styles given the background and numbers of dogs I am exposed to than some do. Throw backs do happen and even in our standard a terrier front is mentioned (faulty, but mentioned).

Debbie

[tex'smom]

April, I just wanted to say "welcome" My tex sends shorty lots of ear skritches & arrooooooss

[Michael Romanos]

Other countries national dog organisations such as NZ and Australia had recognised Pems and Cardis as acceptable pure breeds well before the USA, and like Britain, these countries did not classify Corgis as Terriers. The Americans got it wrong.
There's precious little about a Corgi that's Terrier. Think about it. What Terriers are designed for and what Corgis were bred for. They are worlds apart. I don't care how many mice and rats a Corgi can catch. I had Corgis who got rid of a mouse problem I had once but this is meaningless. I wrote a story about a English Cocker Spaniel who went hunting for rabbits with his cat friend and they caught and killed hundreds. Cockers are not diggers ( BUT TERRIERS ARE) and they are not into rooting for rabbits and killing them (BUT TERRIERS ARE). Does this mean that Cockers are Terriers or Terrier related. I think not.
The most plausable scenario for the origins of Pems is a mix of Cardi and a Spitz type dog (Valhund) that came from Norway/Sweden and found its way to Wales via the Vikings. Valhunds are not Terrier type dogs either. That is why Pems are accepted as part of the Spitz group of dogs- and there are Spitz dog grouping clubs around the world.
Having said all that, it is now accepted that all dogs originated from "first parents" - meaning that even the tiny Chihuahuas and the "small horse" Great Danes are related.

And as for the mention of a Terrier front as a fault in the Pem standard: that is simply terminology - not a fact of history.

[tandemgal]

Hi April

deleted by T-Gal