New Breeds

[Michael Romanos]

The question of the possibility of new breeds of dogs came up on the thread called Cardi Extinction. I said in the near future new breeds could emerge from such unios as a Labrador-Poddle etc. Glencorgi said it would take generations for any new breed to emerge. Now this might be so - but not human generations. Dog generations.

I had a chat with the New Zealand national dog Registrar at the NZ Kennel Club who happens to be the acting CEO of the club at present. Colleen said that the last official new breed of dog she knows about is the Jack Russell Terrier which was accepted by the world canine federation 15 years ago. The Jack Russell is Australian and is an 'offshoot' of the Parsons Russell Terrier. A group of Australians had bred Jack Russells for an alloted number of years and kept a "stud' register. Colleen says the minimum breeding that can be accepted by the world body for creating a new breed is eight generations. So it is possible for a new breed of dog , say a Lab-Poodle to be accepted officially after a dozen years of breeding. That is eight generation matings each at age 18 months.

On that score, I rest my case. But I also thank Glencorgi for unwittingly presenting me with yet another idea for an article. I think this subject would interest a lot of people. Colleen would be a good source of information as would a NZKC committee which is set up to approve or disapprove of breeds of dogs. At the last count I am aware of, there are 332 recognised (via the international canine federation) breeds of dogs. There is nothing to stop another 332 from being recognised.

Colleen says the Americans are seeking to establish another breed for the English Setter which are fairly popular in the USA, but the American version of the English Setter varies too greatly from the English Setter as they are in other countries outside of the USA. It is probable that a new breed of Setter will be called American Setter. A bit like the (English) Cocker Spaniel and the American Cocker Spaniel.

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

The question of the possibility of new breeds of dogs came up on the thread called Cardi Extinction. I said in the near future new breeds could emerge from such unios as a Labrador-Poddle etc. Glencorgi said it would take generations for any new breed to emerge. Now this might be so - but not human generations. Dog generations.

Well, yea - duh ... I think that is what I used to illustrate why Puggles, Cockapoos, etc weren't breeds - The offspring is F1 generation, and the breeders of such mixes don't go beyond that. For the next litter of -uggles or -poos, they breed a Pug to a Beagle or a Cocker to a Poodle. Continental Kennel Club used to have helpful hints on which breed to use as the sire or the dam to create the "look" of puppy one wanted. But, since they didn't breed the Cockapoo to another Cockapoo, no breed is created. Now the -doodles, (Labra or Golden, etc.) the original concept for them, as I understand it, was with vision and purpose. The hope was to create a more hypoallergenic type coat (from the poodle, but wouldn't require the labor intensive management of the poodle coat) in a good service type breed such as the Labrador or the Golden Retriever which would be beneficial in programs such as for seeing eye dogs for example. This program began, I believe, originally in Australia - it's been awhile since I looked at this info. They did go beyond generation one I believe and with input from Murphy and Mother Nature, found they could not get them to breed true. Offspring were all over the board in terms of coats (ask groomers about doodle coats), temperaments (ask obedience class instructors about behavioral problems) and type. Were the "founders" not selective enough about the offspring they chose to breed for the traits they were trying to set - I don't know. Or did Mother Nature just say, "this isn't going to work!" I don't know that either. I do know that even within a breed there are some lines which just do not work together. No matter how incredible the dogs are behind them, when bred together they just produce mediocre specimens.

I had a chat with the New Zealand national dog Registrar at the NZ Kennel Club who happens to be the acting CEO of the club at present. Colleen said that the last official new breed of dog she knows about is the Jack Russell Terrier which was accepted by the world canine federation 15 years ago. The Jack Russell is Australian and is an 'offshoot' of the Parsons Russell Terrier. A group of Australians had bred Jack Ruissells for an alloted number of years and kept a "stud' register.

Parson Jack Russell Terriers have been around since the 1800's and are the work of Parson John Russell. Acceptance as an AKC recognized breed came along a rather contentious and bumpy path amongst its fanciers. Accepted into AKC in 1997, in 2003 the AKC recognized version was renamed the Parson Russell Terrier. The Jack Russell Club of America is the other recognized registery for them with much focus on the working aspects of this little terrier.

http://www.prta.org
http://www.terrier.com/breed/history.php3

[quote] Colleen says the minimum breeding that can be accepted by the world body for creating a new breed is eight generations. So it is possible for a new breed of dog , say a Lab-Poodle to be accepted officially after a dozen years of breeding. That is eight generation matings each at age 18 months.[quote]

The path the Australians took IS the way to establish a breed. While theoretically possible, it is doubtful that any of the so called designer breeds today will come any closer to achieving breed status as the cockapoos or maltipoos have over the decades they've been around. Why? Because the producers of those aren't taking puppy one out of Litter A and breeding it to puppy 3 out of Litter B to set a trait such as coat, ear set, tail set, size and then taking puppy one out that litter (Litter C) to breed to puppy 2 out of Litter D to further try to set the traits. They have no breed description or standard, nor do they keep a stud book. Someone wants a litter of Puggles - they breed the Pug to the Beagle and it ends there.

On that score, I rest my case.

And thank you for supporting my case on why these new "designer" dogs are not breeds with the information from Colleen. Here is another new breed she might being seeing IF they get their FCI recognition. http://www.silkenwindhound.com/history.html

But I also thank Glencorgi for unwittingly presenting me with yet another idea for an article.

While I am extremely flattered for the credit of being such an inspirational muse, there is a ton of written material already on the subject.

I think this subject would interest a lot of people. Colleen would be a good source of information as would a NZKC committee which is set up to approve or disapprove of breeds of dogs. At the last count I am aware of, there are 332 recognised (via the international canine federation) breeds of dogs. There is nothing to stop another 332 from being recognised.

What would be helpful to get out to John Q Public is why their doodles or poos or uggles are NOT breeds and why they are being taken for a ride.

Colleen says the Americans are seeking to establish another breed for the English Setter which are fairly popular in the USA, but the American version of the English Setter varies too greatly from the English Setter as they are in other countries outside of the USA. It is probable that a new breed of Setter will be called American Setter. A bit like the (English) Cocker Spaniel and the American Cocker Spaniel.

According to the Setter people, this "talk" has been going on for ages, but has never been moved beyond talk. In the US there are many breeds that have "split" so to speak into working/field lines and bench lines (aka "show" lines). Often the division is so profound that the two styles don't look like the same breed.
"Field ENglish Setter 24-45 pounds, 18-24 inches at the shoulder white with patches
Bench English Setter 48-75 pounds, 24-26 inches at the shoulder white*with ticking and without patches on the body. Total different type of personality too, the field are more like border collies, Jack Russels etc very high strung.."

The English Setter people would love for the split to come as their rescue program is covered up with field type ES's the breeders of which never take responsibility for or help in any way with.

Debbie

[Michael Romanos]

I think the point of what I amj saying and what officaldom agrees, is that a new breed of dog can be engineered in a very short space of time (within a dozen years) and it could be started from a union between any kind of breed with any other kind of breed. Be it a Corbel (Corgi-Beagle) or anything else that one or more breeders fancy and set their minds to. Just like the Rev Jack Russell did.

I am not adverse to being the millionth writer to pen an article about any particular subject to do with dogs. What i need is something that interests me, might interest others and will find an outlet to see the light of day.

Your piece about English Setters is very interesting and yes, it must be emphasised that doodles and spoodles etc are not recognised breeds of dogs because the people breeding them are probably making too much money to take the time to set up a proper breeding programme including careful selection of parents, in order for official breed recognition.

[corgimom]

This place has CorgiPoos

Fairview Kennels - Personality Plus. Quality dog breeders.

You can click on Corgipoos and then puppies to see the pictures

[ColColt]

What a bunch of ding bats! Those puppies looked 90% poodle to me. I didn't see any Corgi characteristics at all...good Lord.

[ZdogZ]

Just a little humor: I've always said if we had bred Zip (cocker) and Zia (corgi), we would have Corkers!

[tandemgal]

Santa brought Leah & her little brother Reece a puppy for Christmas ... a little Bass-nouzer, Kisses. He lives up to his name and is just kissable...

Mom is a basset and Dad a schnauzer. I can tell you he is not a "designer dog" just an Ooopsmutt breed and he didn't cost Santa a penny.

And although he is adorable with his brown schnauzer face complete with eyebrows and whiskers and his basset coloring, body and little legs I don't think his breed will catch on with the AKC.

I can see why new breeds like the Jack Russell are developed by responsible breeders. But all the doodle this and poo that by people who are trying to find a new hook to line their pockets is.... a lot of poo!

[Dillydoodle]

I would never ever in a million years be interested in a corgipoo, but if i were interested in getting a mutt ( call them designer dogs or what have you, but they are MUTTS) i would go to the local pound and SAVE A LIFE!!! not dump hundreds or in some of the cases of designer dogs , thousands of dollars for a mutt when there are so many being put to sleep every day in the local shelters. This is something that irritates me to no end. And those who say they are so much healthier are fooling themselves... my friend got a goldendoodle, her name was Katie...she was a loving sweet dog and she shed ( not a lot but still shed) and she recently DIED of addison's disease (one of the diseases seen in poorly bred poodles) at age 1yr 10 months... Needless to say, the breeder never returned the devistated owners calls...not shocking at all... I see a corgi breeder breeding mixes i would run the other way as fast as i could...

Emilie

[Bebopin_for_a_good_time]

I have an opinion. Why are we breeding these designer dogs when we have plenty of dogs being put to sleep in shelters cause no one wants them? You could possibly find..a cock-a-poo, corgipoo, or any other poo that you want. I don't understand why we're selling these dogs for however much, when all you have to do is go to a local shelter and save a life. "But they could die! and they're not looked after!" Blah blah blah, why do you think they have volunteer programs and why they need money donated every year? To take them to the vet. I just hate to see people breeding mutts to be sold when you can save one from the pound...

[Michael Romanos]

This is a kind of subject that people can get very uptight about because some people have close association with poor unwanted dogs - and many that are pure bred. And these dogs deserve something infinitely better in life. But one has to face facts that many people want a dog from when they are an eight week old pup. And for those who can afford it, a so called designer bred pup seems to hold great attraction ( maybe it is pet shop promotion that's done the trick) - they are usually a small dog, usually of a mixture which often produces a non shedding variety and anything to do with a springy poodle has qualities that a lot of people like. I can't say it is all a huge success from my point of view because some of the mixes have a Bishon Frise component and Bishon's can be rather silly dogs. Another breed that can be rather silly is the Jack Russell - and that happens to be the latest recognised pure breed dog that of cousre developed from Fox Terriers and other minglings. Some people like their dog silly because to them silliness can be a form of personality.