Breeding and Rescue outside North America

[BannaOj]

Michael Romanos, I know my views on breeding are somewhat U.S.-centric and filtered through what happens here with puppy mills, breed rescue and animal rights folks. But I'm curious.

You are in NZ right? How would you characterize breeding dogs in NZ and Australia compared to the U.S.? Are there problems there, with people discarding their dogs in animal shelters? Do large scale for-profit breeding operations exist, like we would call "puppy mills" here? Are hobby breeders regulated?

AJ

[Michael Romanos]

I would find it impossible to reply to this thread and do it justice. Such a complicated subject matter.
New Zealand has a tiny population in a fairly sizeable (11th largest island in the world) land mass with over 90 percent of the land inhabitable for humans and a moderate climate. Therefore we are a very suitable country for all breeds of dogs to live in and we are a world leading dog breeding nation on a per capita basis with one dog for every eight humans.
We have a dog attack problem with far too many despicable dog owners, too many unhappy, badly adjusted dogs and not enough people with or without dogs who understand the psyche of a dog. We have also been slack in allowing fighting breeds of dogs into the country and in not imposing some controls on dogs that are the locking jaw type. But we don't have a huge abandoned dog problem. We have council-owned dog pounds and we have SPCA organisations and we have a few animal rescue groups. I run a pure bred Corgi rescue adjunct to the WWCWC for the region I live in. We have many fine regular dog breeders whose dogs are sought after in many parts of the world. I think we have only one large puppy mill - and that was a Wheaton Terrier Kennel whose owner is in the process of being prosecuted in court. But we do have some breeders who provide Designer Dog breeds for pet shops etc. Our pet shops sell relatively few puppies.
We do believe in advertising puppies for sale through the usual methods of advertising. The cost of buying a pedigree puppy here is much less than in the USA - the cheapest breed to buy are both Pem and Cardi Corgis (for no particular reason). A hobby breeder ( I call them casual breeders) is treated no differently to a regular breeder. You can get special dispensation to keep X-amount of dogs from a council provided you don't live in any area that maybe zoned against keeping more than three dogs over 12 months of age.

[BannaOj]

Sadly, here in the U.S. there are many abandoned dogs that die, never making it to a shelter. While farmers keep their own dogs and are compassionate, many people drive out to the country to abandon their dogs so that they won't "find their way home" Unfortunately in order to avoid destructive packs, many farmers end up shooting and killing those stray dogs on sight, although every now and then they'll take one of those same strays in if it catches their eye.

I don't know here in the U.S. what I would consider a "hobby breeder" vs a "regular breeder". I mean I would consider myself, and most of the "dog people" I associate with that breed and show dogs, "hobby breeders". With the exception of professional handlers, most responsible dog people don't make large amounts of money in breeding or showing dogs, virtually never enough to live on. (and even most pro handlers, while they assume a veneer of wealth, aren't actually that wealthy, if they don't court enough wealthy patrons, or lose one, their livelihood is on a thread)

I have bred two litters, and even with 10 puppies just barely broke even on the first one, because I had to pay $2500 for a c-section. I still owe money for the stud fee on the second litter, and probably won't break even on it ever. It was an A.I. breeding of fresh chilled semen, and that costs quite a bit at the vet's with hormone testing, shipping the semen in special containers and the like. I don't regret it because I have four lovely puppies for the future, which was why I did it, but between the actual costs the amount of time I've put into them, I'll never make money.

And the actual showing of the dogs costs money. Yes, the judges need to be paid, and the club putting on the show hopefully makes some money too. But the entry fee per dog per class per day is normally around $20. If I enter two dogs every day in a 3 day show weekend it is $120, not to mention the gas for travel and food and lodging expenses. Even being absolutely frugal, it will cost me at least $150, probably more.

Dog showing here in the U.S. partially belongs to the wealthy. The ones who can afford to advertise and pay a handler thousands of dollars to show their dog for long amounts of time and ship them all over the country to the big shows. (Oh and if you are paying a pro handler to show your dog $50 a show day is cheap, many charge $75/ day plus boarding and other expenses, and that's for the non-champions)

But, for those of us who are less wealthy, there is real financial sacrifice involved, in order to show our dogs and we do it truly for the love of the dogs and the breed. Obedience and agility add up financially also in training classes and equipment and the like, and the entry fees are the same, and many of the agility dogs end up needing acupuncturists and canine chiropractors for sports injuries, no matter how careful we are. And it's more often the little people who are involved in the grass roots rescue efforts also.

I think this is where some of our resentment comes in of the so-called "irresponsible" breeders. They create and financially benefit from the purebred dogs that we often end up rescuing for the love of the breed. And those who do the rescuing, are the ones who have to put the time and money and energy into putting a broken dog back together again. Yes, there is a moral satisfaction of rescuing a dog and seeing it end up in a happy home, but the frustration comes when there isn't a moral penalty, except perhaps in the afterlife, for those irresponsible breeders and owners that discard dogs, like articles of clothing.

Out of such was the animal rights movement born. Yet, those of us small responsible breeders, are the ones that get penalized when they try to pass the laws to punish the irresponsible ones. The irresponsible ones aren't going to follow the law anyway, and only in extreme cases are they ever caught or face penalties. While those of us who are trying to do the right thing often face laws wanting hundreds of dollars in fees for owning an unaltered purebred dog and even more for breeding a litter. Because we are the law abiding ones who want to be responsible we end up in quite a fix.

Obviously there is political lobbying going on both directions, and we are having to become more organzied throughout the purebred community as a necessity, but that is sort of the "emotional" state of the purbred dog fancy in the U.S. at the moment, and why dicussions do become so emotional so rapidly. We are fighting to keep on pursuing a hobby that we love, even if it is a financially money-losing endeavour, and cleaning up the messes of those who make money on it causes us to lose even more...

AJ

[Michael Romanos]

In New Zealand, conformation shows is for everyone who can afford to pay the cost of fuel for their car travelling, or be able to hook onto someone else to drive them to the show venue. Professional show dog handlers here is unknown among almost all the breeds that are exhibited. The entry fees for showing a dog are minimal -$10 at most per entry - more likely set at $5-$6. Most casual breeders here make little money out of the pups they sell. But our costs (vet fees, registration fees etc are no where near as expensive as in the United States.

[BannaOj]

Another comment... sometimes due to the expense and time for travel it is actually cheaper to pay a handler. I believe you get more vacation on average in NZ than we do here in the U.S. Even when I can afford to, I can't get to all of the dog shows I would like to because I would also have to take time off of work to travel and that would use more vacation days than I have.

[Michael Romanos]

If you are in paid employment in New Zealand, you are now entitled to four weeks per annum in holidays which is apart from all the various public holidays. Then there are long service leave and executive leave which can increase the four weeks annual leave to upwards of seven weeks, usually five or six weeks.

[BannaOj]

Maybe I need to move to New Zeland! I know I would have a pretty good shot at employment in Australia because I'm an engineer but I don't know about NZ. Steve and I kick the idea around every now and then. We also happen to like rugby, and get a sports channel that is going to cover all the world cup games.

I love the U.S. for many, many reasons, however the vacation policies here suck.

[Michael Romanos]

You are a prime emigrator for New Zealand. We are in urgent need of engineers, our main religion is Rugby, almost everyone in NZ knows a Corgi from any other breed of dog and in places like Upper Hutt (just 20 minutes from the capital city), dogs have unrestricted rights to any park, reserve and bush/forest/river trail tracks.