Corgis well placed

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by KJohnson

Corgis are wonderful, and if other people can appreciate them as much as we all do, it's good that they are being recognized.

Corgis ARE wonderful in the right homes. I have the ability to "appreciate" a lot of breeds, but that does not mean they are the correct breed for me or a breed I want to live with day in and day out. Recognition, well do we really want to discuss what recognition did for Dalmatians after Disney's 101 Dalmatian movies? Want to know what happens when a breed wins Westminister or places first in a group there? Very next day breeders and rescue phones begin ringing off the hook and inboxes of e-mail accounts get filled by John Q. Public wanting a dog just like that one that won. Doesn't matter about grooming requirements, drool, size, temperament ... they just want one. Recognition results in consequences and usually not favorable ones for the best interest and welfare of a breed. That is reality.

((I understand that more puppies = more puppies being abused, I just want to throw that out there so I don't "get in trouble" for thinking the way that I do!))

Let's throw away the notion of equating the number of puppies produced with abuse numbers. In the US, we unfortunately live in a very disposable society - flavor of the month, fad of the week type mentality. And once the flavor has worn off or when the next fad comes along what happens then? Whatever is disposed of ... including dogs. The biggest problem in the shelter system today is owner retention. It isn't that there are too many dogs being produced, rather that owners don't keep them. No longer than this forum has been in existence, there are already a number of former members who shared the same initial enthusiasm you are experiencing with your new puppy, but have since placed it on. There are current members on now, in five years time I can safely predict they will no longer have their corgis either. They aren't bad people are even irresponsible owners, but they will no longer own their corgis.

I also think it might help to understand exactly what the numbers are and what they mean. The AKC ranking list is based on individual registrations per breed. Of the over 100,000 individual registrations AKC received, PWC's ranked #22 of them, Cardigans #78. Think of it like car sales; Labs would be like Honda Civics and take the analogy on down.

Debbie

[MyPemCharlie]

Originally Posted by glencorgi

Let's throw away the notion of equating the number of puppies produced with abuse numbers. In the US, we unfortunately live in a very disposable society - flavor of the month, fad of the week type mentality. And once the flavor has worn off or when the next fad comes along what happens then? Whatever is disposed of ... including dogs. The biggest problem in the shelter system today is owner retention. It isn't that there are too many dogs being produced, rather that owners don't keep them. No longer than this forum has been in existence, there are already a number of former members who shared the same initial enthusiasm you are experiencing with your new puppy, but have since placed it on. There are current members on now, in five years time I can safely predict they will no longer have their corgis either. They aren't bad people are even irresponsible owners, but they will no longer own their corgis.

Debbie

It makes me sad to see you pessimistic about predicting that some community members here on GoCorgi would not keep their Corgis for life. Of course there may be a few who won't or can't. The retention rate would be much higher amongst members here than in the general population of dog owners.

Dogs are often given up for behavior problems, meaning that the owner did not know what to expect from the dog and didn't have or learn the skills to train and bond with the dog. Forums like GoCorgi provide education and support and I believe that people who sign up to groups like this are likely to be the utmost of concerned, interested, knowledgable and overall best pet owners. I'm inclined to be optimistic that forum members here seek and find the answers they need to provide their dog the very best of a forever home.

[Chip's Mom]

I believe that people who sign up to groups like this are likely to be the utmost of concerned, interested, knowledgable and overall best pet owners. I'm inclined to be optimistic that forum members here seek and find the answers they need to provide their dog the very best of a forever home.

Chris - I agree with you totally and that is why it is so important to be encouragers and give good sound helpful information in a courteous way so people will continue to ask questions and not give up looking for answers.

[ColColt]

Message moved

[Michael Romanos]

Of course a lot of the breeds that the AKC has lumped together are separate breeds in every way the Pems and Cardis are - and to some people like myself, Cardis and Pems are fairly closely related.
For instance, a Standard (large) Poodle and a Toy Poodle have bred less with one another for obvious reasons for probably longer than when Cardis and Pems interbred.
It is nonsense for Corgi lovers to want to demote Corgis on some bogus pretext rather than promote them as per the representative basis of the typical Corgi. Some Go Corgi members like to think that Corgis are so special that they are not suitable for nearly everybody. I am of the opinion that they are easier to raise and train and care for than are the world's most popular breed - the Labrador.

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by MyPemCharlie

It makes me sad to see you pessimistic about predicting that some community members here on GoCorgi would not keep their Corgis for life.

Perhaps it might seem a bit jaded of me, but when one has been around long enough and seen a lot of stuff, comings and goings on a number of lists and forums just like this one, the rose colored glasses get misplaced. <sigh> As it has already happened, members giving up their corgis even within the limited time this forum has been in existence, I think that says it all.

Of course there may be a few who won't or can't. The retention rate would be much higher amongst members here than in the general population of dog owners.

But GC is very representative of the general population of dog owners. Owner retention rate probability here is no different than any other segment of the dog owning population and the forum members have proved it.

Debbie

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

Of course a lot of the breeds that the AKC has lumped together are separate breeds in every way the Pems and Cardis are -

Not according to the standards.

... and to some people like myself, Cardis and Pems are fairly closely related.

To a general pet owner, that might be uninformed conclusion.

For instance, a Standard (large) Poodle and a Toy Poodle have bred less with one another for obvious reasons for probably longer than when Cardis and Pems interbred.

Again, go to the standard. The standard for Poodles is the same except for the height difference. You left out the Miniatures, there are three Poodle varieties.

It is nonsense for Corgi lovers to want to demote Corgis on some bogus pretext rather than promote them as per the representative basis of the typical Corgi.

There is nothing bogus nor is there any pretext in anything I have written. I deal with the consequences of the breed(s) popularity every day, as do a few others. I dare say if you would see the cross section of corgis that some of us here do, there might be a different opinion.

Some Go Corgi members like to think that Corgis are so special that they are not suitable for nearly everybody. I am of the opinion that they are easier to raise and train and care for than are the world's most popular breed - the Labrador.

Your last statement has just proven the point many of us have tried to make time after time, no one breed is right for everyone. Lab people might (and some have) find corgis much more difficult to raise, train and care for than corgis.

Debbie

[Michael Romanos]

Debbie - you have a way of trying to trap members into your own narrow web. I know very well that there are Miniature Poodles - Taylor competes against a bevy of them in agility. Naming every breed was not the point I was making.

Aside from other factors, I cannot believe that a really tiny former country, such is Wales, can produce two very distinctive and unique farm dogs from areas no more than a few miles apart, who are lookalikes and carry many similarities and yet they are not related. Thank goodness I am one of the ordinary people who just loves the very popular Corgi.

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

Debbie - you have a way of trying to trap members into your own narrow web. I know very well that there are Miniature Poodles - Taylor competes against a bevy of themi in agility. Naming every breed was not the point I was making.

I know the misleading point you were trying to make.

Aside from other factors, I cannot believe that a really tiny former country, such is Wales, can produce two very distinctive and unique farm dogs from areas no more than a few miles apart, who are lookalikes and carry many similarities and yet they are not related.

I suggest spending some time on the Cardigan Commentary site, and the PWCCA site doing a little reading on the history of the breeds. It might also be interesting to put geography, and topography into what did separate the two pockets of corgis. There were more than miles which separated them. Compare Mon to say Red Dragon and the differences are striking.

Debbie

[MyPemCharlie]

Originally Posted by glencorgi

Perhaps it might seem a bit jaded of me, but when one has been around long enough and seen a lot of stuff, comings and goings on a number of lists and forums just like this one, the rose colored glasses get misplaced. <sigh> As it has already happened, members giving up their corgis even within the limited time this forum has been in existence, I think that says it all.

But GC is very representative of the general population of dog owners. Owner retention rate probability here is no different than any other segment of the dog owning population and the forum members have proved it.

Debbie

Sorry, but I believe that people who take the time to sign up for a forum and seek help, support and answers do not represent the general population of dog owners. If we could compare the next 100 GoCorgi forum members who are new owners with no dog experience to the next 100 "general" Corgi purchasers with no dog experience who seek no information, no help, no training, and no support, it is impossible for me to believe that the relinquishment rate would be the same at the end of five years. It has been shown that relinquishment rates are much higher among people who do not learn about dog behavior and basic training methods.

My experience volunteering with our local SPCA shelter here also clouded my rose colored glasses. It still made me feel sad to read your prediction of certain members here essentially "failing" their dogs within the next 5 years. You may be right, but it sounded like you have given up hope on people's ability to learn. I believe there is much reason for optimism in this community of Corgi owners. We are all here to share experiences and knowledge, and to give and receive support. As Bonnie suggested, the more this forum has the spirit of a positive place to visit, the more members will feel encouraged to visit and ask for the help they seek.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by glencorgi

Again, go to the standard. The standard for Poodles is the same except for the height difference.

Also, these breeds, Poodles, Dachshunds, Collies, Cockers, and others with varieties have ONE national. All of them at the same national specialty. Corgis don't, there are two nationals, one for each breed.

At AKC shows, the breeds with varieties win "Best of Variety". Corgis win Best of Breed.

Personally I think the "variety" winners should compete for Best of Breed and only one of each breed should go to the group ring. Meaning one dachshund not three, one poodle not three, one collie not two, etc. There would still be two corgis since they are differnt breeds.

Peggy

[Michael Romanos]

Debbie (Glencorgi) seems set on her disagreement wth me when i contend that Labs, the world's most popular breed of dog, are less easy to train and raise and care for than are Corgis.
Personal experience tells me that Corgis are far less troublesome than are Labs and commonsense tells me this also. Yesterday I went to see Connie, (the 8 old Pem that had been in a spot of bother) and her owner. Connie is devoted to the owner who previously owned a Yellow Labrador and she was very sure that Connie who she got only two-three years ago, is much more easier to handle and exercise and self-train than a Lab. Besides, she says, they are so much smaller and need so much less food. Connie was a made-up conformation show champion and had a couple of litters before ownership changed hands. One of the big advantages that a Corgi has over Labs is that a Corgi matures into a sensible adult usually after 12 months. A Lab can take up to three years to reach the same status.

[glencorgi]

Hmmmm let's see, an elderly lady gets a five year old, fully mature, trained and conformation trained on top of all other training adult dog and compare that to the experience of raising a Lab from puppyhood; I wonder why the corgi might seem easier?

Michael is totally ethno/breedcentric when it comes to corgis, well Pembrokes anyway. What he can't seem to get his head around is; fans and devotees of other breeds can hold the same blind devotion to their particular breed of choice. I've known sporting breed fanciers who added a corgi to their Labs and Chessies and well, it was the equivalent of culture shock to them. They didn't find the corgi as easy as the breeds they favored and were used to. When one is used to well-bred, good tempered, easy dogs of a particular breed, then of course a breed seems easy and especially if it is one an individual prefers. Doesn't alter the fact that no one breed is right for every home or family.

Being a little slower maturing into adulthood is just part of the Lab breed and that, depending upon one's vantage, perspective or preference can be a plus or a negative. Labs are very popular as service dogs, so that does speak highly of their "trainability." However, I'm not sure I would go so far to say a corgi is a "sensible" adult at a year of age, you must be dealing with fast maturing lines. My male puppy nearing a year of age is far more "sensible" than his 1/2 sister at a year and 1/2 though. But I don't guess we want to talk about the mature sensibility of my soon to be 14 year old Pem "puppy" or the 12 year old Cardigan "puppy".

Debbie

[Chip's Mom]

I have three corgis and two are full brothers and then Taffy who is not a blood relative but all are purebred corgis and each one of them all have different temperments, issues, requirements. Chip was housetrained at 6 months, Dale took me about a year and Taffy is about housetrained now. I love all three dearly but I will say that if I didn't have knowledge of the breed, a helpful breeder with great suggestions, Taffy could be a problem child so I have to say that not all pembroke corgis are the same and I can see where people may have to great of an expectation out of this breed and then turn them over to rescue when there expectations are not lived up too. I see far more lab mixes and the more popular breed mixes on the street and in shelters probably because they are more popular and turned out on the streets at least in this area. I hope I have made sense.

Debbie - If this is true, I feel really bad to know that someone on our forums has turned in a corgi to rescue.

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by Chip's Mom

I have three corgis and two are full brothers and then Taffy who is not a blood relative but all are purebred corgis and each one of them all have different temperments, issues, requirements. Chip was housetrained at 6 months, Dale took me about a year and Taffy is about housetrained now. I love all three dearly but I will say that if I didn't have knowledge of the breed, a helpful breeder with great suggestions, Taffy could be a problem child so I have to say that not all pembroke corgis are the same and I can see where people may have to great of an expectation out of this breed and then turn them over to rescue when there expectations are not lived up too.

Bonnie has hit on something, well two somethings really. Even though all three of hers are unique and different, they all still fall within the parameters typical corgis. The perk of going with a purebred dog is there is a level of predictability in terms of size, grooming requirements, personality, temperament; but realistically one needs to realize there can be degrees of variation within the predictability. So someone who has the expectation that their new Flogglehound puppy is going to be just like the Flogglehound dog they grew up with in their youth can be in for a big surprise. They may be overlooking the fact their parents trained the dog in their youth and that is what helped make it such a great dog.

Then there are those who go to some internet blurb of a breed description or take an online test to be matched up to the breed for them (one word of caution here, corgi people rarely get matched to corgis when they take them -- go figure?). They come away believing the puppy or adult dog they will get will be just like the description. Well, while the description might be accurate (some of them are woefully misleading), the dogs meet the description because of owner investment in time, effort and training. Same thing with high profile sightings of a breed. Someone watches Disney's Murder She Purred or The Queen and decide they want a dog just like the "corgi" in those movies. Murder, She Purred - three corgis played that role. The Queen, well those corgis were competitively obedience trained. They get the 8, 10, 12 week old puppy home and are at a loss as to why it isn't just like the description they read on the internet or why it doesn't listen like the corgis in the movie.

I see far more lab mixes and the more popular breed mixes on the street and in shelters probably because they are more popular and turned out on the streets at least in this area. I hope I have made sense.

Let me clue you in a little bit about the state of corgis in TN. Jefferson County, three Cardigan littermates - 2 girls and their brother were left at a restaurant close to the shelter. There have been two within about as many months in the Madison County shelter, one a Pem, one a Cardigan. I'm bringing a Pem found as a stray from the Knoxville Shelter back to TN with me to meet her new home at the Sunday picnic. We've decided to pursue more legal channels to deal with a corgi left abandoned by her school teacher owner after she moved out of her condo complex in Nashville. On Monday, when the "owner" picked up her last box, she threw kibble out for the corgi; water bowl was frozen solid. Neighbors took her in. If the decision hadn't been made to follow through in the manner we have, this one would have been coming home with me. Four of these are within about as many months. These aren't counting the corgi mixes which pop up. TN is a problem area for owner retention, regardless of breed or mix, but it is no worse in comparison to more "urban" states.

Debbie - If this is true, I feel really bad to know that someone on our forums has turned in a corgi to rescue.

That's where you need to realize this forum is very much a cross section of the general corgi owning population, no better no better, no worse. After so long being on lists and forums, involved in the breed(s), getting the rescue calls; there are certain tells - just like in poker and they, sadly, get easy to spot.

Debbie