Definition of a Puppy Mill

[glencorgi]

The question was raised in the petition thread about outlawing pet shops and puppy mills as to what is a puppy mill and one's definition of what one was. So I thought I would ask again, what is a puppy mill? Is it the commercial breeding industry which sells to pet shops? Is it a numbers thing? Do numbers of intact animals define one? How about number of puppies produced? How about high volume breeders who sell directly to the public? Do conditions and care define one? How about a breeder with DNA profiles on their studs?

So in specific, concrete language; define what is a puppy mill?

Debbie

[jakort1]

I think this is an interesting question. I'm (definitely) no expert, but, when I think of "puppy mill" I tend to think of a person or persons that breed just for the money. No plan in place, no understanding of the parental pedigrees, no recognition of standard.

I don't think that someone who is a backyard breeder (or front yard depending on preference) is necessarily a poor judge of dogs. They may not breed for (show) conformation, but, they may breed for reason (performance).

As far as DNA profiles, there is technology on the horizon that will change the way certain people breed. Imagine knowing the EXACT complete sequence of your dam and sire? What if you could have a complete genome scan completed to know how your dog stacked up (genetically) to the last dozen champions? Think this wouldn't make a difference...there are those that would consider such things...probably not a puppy mill.

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by jakort1

I don't think that someone who is a backyard breeder (or front yard depending on preference) is necessarily a poor judge of dogs. They may not breed for (show) conformation, but, they may breed for reason (performance).

Someone breeding for performance events will have a breeding plan/program similar to someone who breeds for conformation. Actually, most conformation people also breed for dogs that can do performance.

As far as DNA profiles, there is technology on the horizon that will change the way certain people breed. Imagine knowing the EXACT complete sequence of your dam and sire? What if you could have a complete genome scan completed to know how your dog stacked up (genetically) to the last dozen champions? Think this wouldn't make a difference...there are those that would consider such things...probably not a puppy mill.

There already is DNA technology that is influencing the way we breed, DNA markers for PRA and merle in Cardigans, the fluffy marker for both corgi breeds. As far as to knowing the genome of the last dozen or so CH's, I can think of a few interesting ways to use it as a tool in breeding decisions.

The DNA profile I was referring to is the one used under AKC's FUS (Frequently Used Sires) program. If a dog sires more than 3 litters in one year or seven in a lifetime, then in order for litters to be eligible for registration a DNA profile must be on file with AKC. The is to verify parentage. This program was a large factor as to why a large number of commercial breeders decided to no longer use AKC registration and began their own registeries and why there are so many in the US today.

Debbie

[jakort1]

Originally Posted by glencorgi

There already is DNA technology that is influencing the way we breed, DNA markers for PRA and merle in Cardigans, the fluffy marker for both corgi breeds. As far as to knowing the genome of the last dozen or so CH's, I can think of a few interesting ways to use it as a tool in breeding decisions.

Hi Debbie,
I don't want to belittle PRA testing, but, the markers that are available today are almost minuscule in comparison with what is being developed. I recently read an article on the future of genome sequencing that is suggesting a complete genome sequence in ten days! I'll see if I can find the article and provide a link.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by jakort1

I think this is an interesting question. I'm (definitely) no expert, but, when I think of "puppy mill" I tend to think of a person or persons that breed just for the money. No plan in place, no understanding of the parental pedigrees, no recognition of standard.

I don't think that someone who is a backyard breeder (or front yard depending on preference) is necessarily a poor judge of dogs. They may not breed for (show) conformation, but, they may breed for reason (performance).

Back yard breeders or casual breeders also breed just to make some money. Usually to get back what they spent to buy the female or to make a little extra spending money.

Back yard breeders are often poor judges of dogs because they do not know the standard or usualy care. Their criteria for choosing a mate for their dog is that it's the same breed as theirs. I've talked with many people over the years that fall into this catagory. IMO, back yard breeders are not the ones that breed for performace dogs. That can and usually is still a reptuatable breeder.

Peggy

[Chip's Mom]

I have a question that I have been wanting to ask for a very long time and I DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT mean this to reflect badly on show people or anyone else, I just have a need to know because it is something that blows my mind so here goes

I know of a sweet little corgi girl that is very shy but as sweet as can be and she has a very good pedigree meaning champions from start to finish. From what I understand, she was kept by the breeder as a show quality pup and was to be shown, now comes the kicker - this sweet little girl is very shy which is a serious fault from what I understand so she ends up in a puppy mill setting - How did that happen? I know that situations do occur that are beyond the breeder's control but how do you safeguard against something like this? I would think that the breeder would be very distraught to know where that little girl ended up but I will say that she has a good home now.

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by jakort1

Hi Debbie,
I don't want to belittle PRA testing, but, the markers that are available today are almost minuscule in comparison with what is being developed. I recently read an article on the future of genome sequencing that is suggesting a complete genome sequence in ten days! I'll see if I can find the article and provide a link.

I have it on my other computer and we'll have to wait and see how valuable they are going to be as tools.

Debbie

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Chip's Mom

I have a question that I have been wanting to ask for a very long time and I DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT mean this to reflect badly on show people or anyone else, I just have a need to know because it is something that blows my mind so here goes

I know of a sweet little corgi girl that is very shy but as sweet as can be and she has a very good pedigree meaning champions from start to finish. From what I understand, she was kept by the breeder as a show quality pup and was to be shown, now comes the kicker - this sweet little girl is very shy which is a serious fault from what I understand so she ends up in a puppy mill setting - How did that happen? I know that situations do occur that are beyond the breeder's control but how do you safeguard against something like this? I would think that the breeder would be very distraught to know where that little girl ended up but I will say that she has a good home now.

Meaning the breeder sold her to the puppy mill? I'm not clear on how she got there.

How you prevent it is to
1) sell your puppies with a contract that states the new owner will spay/neuter them. And register them on the limited registration.
2) Spay or neuter before the dog goes to the new home.
3) Screen your buyers very carefully and hopefully you will not sell one to someone who would do this.

Other than spaying or neutering the dog yourself before you place one there is no guarantee that something like this won't happen.

And yes, shy is a serious fault and should not IMO be bred from. Like any trait this can be passed on.

Peggy

[Chip's Mom]

I have no idea how she got there. That is what I have been trying to figure out. I am sure that most breeders have ways to safeguard against this sort of thing happening but somehow she slipped through and I just wondered what other people's thoughts were on the how. Sometimes crazy things bother me and I try to reason it out and this one I can't seem to reason out.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Chip's Mom

I have no idea how she got there. That is what I have been trying to figure out. I am sure that most breeders have ways to safeguard against this sort of thing happening but somehow she slipped through and I just wondered what other people's thoughts were on the how. Sometimes crazy things bother me and I try to reason it out and this one I can't seem to reason out.

We do with contracts. And as you know contracts are only as good as the people who sign them. The breeder could take the person to court if they had a contract.

Sometimes there isn't a good reason or answer. Things like that bug me too. I like things to make sense too.

Peggy

[Chip's Mom]

Yup - you hit the nail right on the head - it bugs me and has for quite awhile. That is true about contracts and looks can be deceiving. Glad it bugs you too.

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by Chip's Mom

I know of a sweet little corgi girl that is very shy but as sweet as can be and she has a very good pedigree meaning champions from start to finish. From what I understand, she was kept by the breeder as a show quality pup and was to be shown, now comes