Help Stop Pet Stores and Puppy Mills

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

Debarking - virtually removing the voice and speaking rights - of a Corgi

But it doesn't Michael, they still can make noise.

would have to be the very last measure - after rehoming and before euthanized.

And there are people who have been in that very position. That chose to do what was necessary to keep their dog(s) in their possession.

Debbie

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

Very good points you make Bonnie - and many so called quality breeders even have their dogs tails docked and have their ears cropped. But debarking to me is particularly cruel in creating a constant life-time aberration in disadvantaging a dog.

Excuse me? You're saying we're not quality breeders because we dock our dogs tails? Isn't Taylor docked?

I've stated my views in debarking in a previous post. But disadvantaged? How so?

Peggy

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Chip's Mom

If you were interviewing a family that wanted to purchase one of your puppies and they met all the criteria but stated that if the puppy was a barker they would need to get him or her debarked, would you sell them a puppy?

Not a problem, I'd could even recommend vets that I know do a good job.

Peggy

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by LaRogue

Peggy, Could I send you a PM with a question I have regarding this?

Better yet, email me at taflar@allwest.net or at taflarpwc@yahoo.com Anyone is welcome to contact me privately any time.

Peggy

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

A member of the WWCWC has a rehomed Pem who was debarked by the breeders and every time he talks, they (the owners) quite visably get upset at the pathetic sounds their Corgi makes from destroyed vocal chords.

It's the owners that are upset here NOT the dog. It's only pathetic if you think it is. What about a person who's vocal cords have been damaged due to cancer? I know of someone who had that happen. He had to have part of his vocal cords removed, he could still talk but was hoarse the rest of his life. He still lived a quality life and lived into his late 80's or early 90's.

It's the same with the dogs that are debarked. They can still bark it just doesn't sound the same.

And by the way, my Cassidy has debarked herself. In Oct. she became hoarse, I thought laryangitis. I've had dogs do that before and a few days rest and they were fine. Well, she didn't get better, the vet says she could but we'd have to sedate her for a couple of weeks. Chances are scar tissue will just build up and she'll be a bit hoarse for the rest of her life. (Or it may still resolve itself. Who knows?) I've never had this happen before. (And NO we did not debark her!!!)

So before you all jump to conclusions, maybe just maybe it's a natural condition too. Now when it's a several dogs, obviously not, but with just one dog, maybe.

Peggy

[Chip's Mom]

Peggy - From some of the comments you have made recently, I understand that you have had a bad time of it lately and I hope everything is ok now. I am not going to keep commenting on this debarking discussion any more because your point of view and mine are completely different. You have missed the point everytime I have posted so there is no reason to continue trying to explain. It is just another area in the world of dogs that we disagree. I will say that comparing a person who has had cancer of the throat or vocal cords to a dog that is debarked so that a person can keep double digit animals in their possession is callous in my humble opinion. I have seen people who have had this procedure done due to cancer and it does take a toll on them. Some people have to use a special device in order to communicate and that is double sad. I am sure your friend had quality of life but if you had ever asked him if he wished that he could talk like a normal person or if he hadn't had cancer and could reverse the surgery, he would have commented yes. We can't compare apples and oranges here and the ends don't justify the means unless every alternative has been tried and failed and a person has no other options left other then rehoming their pet, then yes I would agree to the debarking procedure but this again is just my opinion.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Chip's Mom

Peggy - From some of the comments you have made recently, I understand that you have had a bad time of it lately and I hope everything is ok now. I am not going to keep commenting on this debarking discussion any more because your point of view and mine are completely different. You have missed the point everytime I have posted so there is no reason to continue trying to explain. It is just another area in the world of dogs that we disagree. I will say that comparing a person who has had cancer of the throat or vocal cords to a dog that is debarked so that a person can keep double digit animals in their possession is callous in my humble opinion. I have seen people who have had this procedure done due to cancer and it does take a toll on them. Some people have to use a special device in order to communicate and that is double sad. I am sure your friend had quality of life but if you had ever asked him if he wished that he could talk like a normal person or if he hadn't had cancer and could reverse the surgery, he would have commented yes. We can't compare apples and oranges here and the ends don't justify the means unless every alternative has been tried and failed and a person has no other options left other then rehoming their pet, then yes I would agree to the debarking procedure but this again is just my opinion.

I will agree to disagree.

However, I'm sorry you took my example as callous. I did not mean it that way. I was just pointing out that he had a good quality of life. And yes, I'm sure he would have much rather had his voice back if he could have.

I'll post in another topic the recent stress in my life.

Peggy

[glencorgi]

Maybe to get this thread segued back to topic. (?)

Originally Posted by LaRogue

To throw my two cents in...

I feel the problem lies with the BIG BUSINESS of pets.

Let's examine the 'BIG BUSINESS" of pets though - what is driving it? Not many inquiries or applications I get are looking for an old fashioned "good family dog" anymore. Think about the way those wanting to learn more about corgis phrase their introductions here. What has happened to the "family dog?" It has become a child in a fur suit, a fur kid. Think about the PetsMart commercials - one can't be a good "pet parent" if one didn't buy Fifi a Bobo. Think about the advice given for post spay/neuter care - not an e-collar, but onesies - which really aren't going to prevent a persistent canine from messing with its stitches, plus there is the risk of fibers getting mixed in with the incision for infection. What about all the strollers, carriers, clothes, toys? How much time did one put in studying and researching what they fed/feed their human child and compare that to the time spent on what to feed one's dog. The pet industry is BIG BUSINESS, driven I believe by the change of role for pets from family dog to "fur child" and instead of being a good pet owner, "pet parent" or fashion accessory du jour. Pets as fashion accessories does play into this.

I am shocked by the number of people I come across (and know) who want a dog, not because they want a healthy, happy puppy to become a member of their family, but rather because they think it's an easy way to make money.

Those have always been around and there is a link to wanting to cash in on the pet parents.

I think the efforts to educate the public on responsible ownership/breeding have made great progress-with those who may not have known better and WANT to be responsible.

Yes they have, the percentage of altered pets today vs five years ago even is proof of that.

As for the rest, I don't think all the legislation or education in the world will make a dent, as long as it is seen as profitable and an easy way to make a buck.

You hit that nail squarely on the head.

As for pet stores, I know as many as 15 years ago, some of them started trying to buy local bred puppies (byb) rather than from puppy mills, in an effort to avoid the puppy mill PR. I stopped going to pet stores that sell animals, but when I did, I was seeing a different corgi every week. Maybe that has changed now, as it has been several years in I've been in that type pet shop. I can only hope.

There are all kinds of governmental regulations when it comes to selling to pet stores and from whom the stores can buy. In my area, the number of pet stores that actually sell puppies has stayed pretty constant over the years, only two have actually endured. One is a former PetLand and gave up its franchise in the last year and the other is in a mall setting. None of the "mom & pop" type stores last very long at all. The pet supply places and specialty shops for the "pet parents" are growing in number and business though.

Debbie

[ColColt]

Hmmmm....it seems the only ones advocating debarking here are the ones that perhaps have too many dogs already to listen to all day. Maybe we should also cut their feet off as not to have to be bothered with trimming the nails and risk a lawsuit over someone getting scratched. Some folks should just raise turtles.

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by MyPemCharlie

They don't ask. With all the info that is available, pet store buyers are not on the forums, or looking through "junk mail" flyers. They are not the people who do any homework.

Yes, they do ... and if you will look back on some advice you yourself have given on here and the responses to it ... for all the sound advice you've given, if by happenstance some of these folks decide to check out the puppies in the window and there's a fluffy little corgi sitting in there, they'll buy it. We've seen it happen on here and any number of other corgi lists. I know of one lady, knew about all the pet shop stuff and was turned down by a rescue for several reasons for adoption of a particular corgi rescue she wanted. So and I quote her, "she showed that rescue, she went right to the pet shop and bought a corgi puppy."

The believe the pet store clerk who tells them that the "quality" dog they're looking at comes from USDA licensed breeding facility.

That's not the sales pitch, the puppies come from "private breeders." I do and will make it a point to go into the shops that sell puppies when I have the opportunity. Public education can be done on subtle levels.

USDA sounds pretty good if you don't know that means under-regulated puppy mill. They don't ignore the information...they never sought it out to begin with.

Just in the past few days, look how much sought out information has been ignored or excused away as something that simply couldn't be done. People who definitely do know better go and purchase pet shop puppies in the name of "rescuing" or saving them.

At some point their veterinarian or some friend tells them the real truth about the link between pet stores and puppy mills, usually after they have a problem.

And those problems are usually no different than can and do occur regardless the source of the puppy. We'll agree most likely that a number of the problems are behavioral and created by the human end of the relationship. Perceived finicky eater, change foods a bunch of times and one is created - when in reality puppy is just testing boundaries, is teething and gums hurt so off its food.

Buying from the neighbor who at least has healthy pets and does some puppy socialization may not be the optimum option, but it's still far better than supporting the neglect and horrible conditions that are rampant in puppy mill industry.

And the neighbor's pets are "healthy" because their vet said so? I get the "neighbor" bred pets and they've been no different health wise than any of the any of the pet shop source fosters. Temperaments, well two here now - socialization wasn't a part of their puppyhood. Not going to be any difference in basic issues in the pet shop puppy and the one bought at the horse show at six weeks.

Sorry, the official PetLand website only shows one location in your state. Maybe they haven't updated their site...although they already show the store here that hasn't even opened yet.

The one in Greensboro, lost or gave up its franchise in the last year or two. IF there is only one coming to NC, then that is a drastic reduction in what was here five or ten years ago.

Fortunately, I think Corgis are not a top breed of choice for the puppy mills (and hopefully never will be).

Pembrokes are a staple in the commercial industry. Cardigans are in the system as well, just not as popular yet.

The AKC top 10 are much more likely to be milled, pet shopped and later end up in rescue.

Let's look at the top 10:
Retrievers (Labrador) 1
Yorkshire Terriers 2
German Shepherd Dogs 3
Retrievers (Golden) 4
Beagles 5
Boxers 6
Dachshunds 7
Poodles 8
ShihTzu 9
Bulldogs 10

Commercial industry tends to stay with smaller dogs and those that can free whelp. That takes the Labs, GSD's, Goldens, Boxers out of the mix.

I was referring to all breeds, and to shelter relinquishments as well as rescue organizations. Many times the shelters will euthanize due to health or temperament and the dog has no chance at a rescue placement.

And many times euthanasia is the only solution - there are health and temperament issues rescue can't fix.

The Amish puppymills sell their leftovers (more than they place themselves) to Hunte Corp who is the broker/supplier for the pet stores.

The Amish aren't really in Hunte's supply chain and many of them sell their leftovers to rescue organizations and/or auction them off. I do know some people who work closely with the Amish via rescue.

That is one rational for wanting to close off the pet store supply...to cut Hunte's demand and then cut puppy mill demand.

The pet industry is growing, but retail outlets that actually sell puppies I don't believe is growing as fast as other segments. Demand is driven by John Q. Public. Before AKC implemented its DNA profiling program, the breakdown on registrations were: 10% - the hobby breeder/dog show people; 30% - the commercial breeding industry; that leaves 60% coming from the - let's get our money back out of what we paid for this puppy, wouldn't it be nice for the children to experience the miracle of birth, or the everybody needs one -fill-in the breed - types, or the I just want to provide pets type breeders. Which do you think has contributed more to rescues and shelters? I can tell you.

[QUTOE=]Yes, thankfully the numbers have been falling for years! Now we only euthanize 5 to 6 millions dogs and cats every year (down from estimates as high as 17 million a decade ago). About 30% are dogs.[/quote]

And the percentage of purebreds in the 30% that is dogs is what? Even HSUS's own numbers had it at less than 20%. 17 to 18% were some of the last figures. Of that 30%, how many are actually adoptable?

That means we euthanize only 10 animals every minute, every day, 365 days a year. Sounds like too many animals and not enough human homes to me.

How many of those are puppies? How many of those 10 animals had homes, but the owner didn't keep it?

The problem is twofold. Owner relinquishment and too many unwanted animals. It's not one or the other.

And unwanted animals are unwanted by whom? Their former owners????

The question has still not been answered, what is a puppy mill? Define it in concrete, succinct terms so that one can be easily recognizable and identifiable. Because if the plan is to shut them down, a workable legal definition has to be made. IF it can't be done, then the target is just being put on the back of the individual(s) everyone here got their corgi from.

Debbie

[fogebotom]

Originally Posted by Chip's Mom

Peggy - First of all you could apply your last sentence about being judgmental to alot of things and secondly your explanation doesn't fly as I can't believe people would go to the expense of debarking their dogs simply because a neighbor is complaining about somebody elses dog barking. I cannot believe that people who geniunely love their dog would put their dogs through that surgery simply to pacify the neighbors without defending their dogs. Doesn't make any sense to me.

Totally beg to differ on this one as I have known several people in that same situation. One gal now routinely debarks all her dogs over the age of 8 mos. because AC came once with a barking dog complaint, many years ago. And yes, because she had "numbers" of dogs(no more then 8 at a given time) and lived in town, the compliants thereafter were always directed at her first. Proactive, she debarks and can have AC come out with the noise meter and confirm it's not her dogs.

[Celtic Crone]

In spite of the insipid braying, I thoroughly read this thread and found no one advocating or promoting debarking. In fact, I found no complaints from those who realize that this procedure is sometimes a necessary tool in protecting ones dog(s) about their dogs' barking. In fact in reality, it doesn't sound as if those speaking in defense of the procedure have debarked dogs themselves or if so, not many. hee haw

I see an attempt to help people realize even one dog can be labeled a nuisance barker if one has the "wrong" neighbor and it can be targeted as easily as someone with multiple dogs in certain neighborhoods, subdivisions, HOA's etc.

Does anyone else see the irony that someone couldn't bother to put up fencing of some sort to keep their dog protected, safe and respect neighbors' property, because it wouldn't be "fair" and is now having to be rehome said dog is accepted as no big deal; but someone willing to debark their dog in order to keep it along with peace in their neighborhood is seen as the scum of the earth?

Viv

[MyPemCharlie]

This thread has become so diluted, I'm hesitant to attempt to add too much more on the original topic of trying to stop the additional opening of pet stores, thereby cutting some of the demand for puppy mill puppies and puppy brokers.

PetLand has 140 US stores and plan to open an additional 25 stores in the next 12 months. They are the larget and fastest growing chain. 18% growth in one year does indicate lots of demand for intact animals that the well-intended, but uneducated John Q wants to take home and breed.

I do not believe that spay/neuter rates have significantly increased due largely to successful consumer education, while it does play some part in the increased rates. I believe spay/neuter rates are up because of the widespread adoption of city and county animal shelters and rescue groups mandatorily spaying and neutering before adopting animals into homes. In addition, the responsible pet stores who have stopped selling intact animals and started supporting local pet adoption groups have decreased local supply of intact pets and positively contributed to consumer education.

Now for anyone with the bright idea that they should get a dog and have a litter or two, the supply is cut to two choices: puppy mills (direct or through pet stores) or back yard breeders. I would distinguish the two in respect to living conditions, human contact, home raising, socialization, sanitation, vet care.

While puppy mills may be a smaller percentage of available intact "supply" than back yard breeders, the genetics of these dogs have to be the absolute most damaging to the standard of any breed. This thread was intended to address pet store/puppy mill issues, not intended to address the many other facets to the problem.

As I think everyone has agreed, there is always going to be demand for intact pets from John Q public who thinks that home breeding is a nifty idea. The debate seems to be whether John Q is educated and behaving stupidly and irresponsibly, or if John Q is really the last holdout example of the uneducated and unaware buyer who has done no research on populations issues or responsible breeding. I believe it is the latter: a lack of education. Reading the Petland Complaint filings indicates to me that most buyers were completely unaware until after the fact that their puppy was most likely sourced through a puppy mill. If the pet store puppy didn't die an early death after thousands spent in vet bills, the owner realized that it was surely the worst choice for "breeding" stock. Hard way to educate the consumer...after the fact.

OK, y'all can go back to your "off topic" discussion now. LOL

[Chip's Mom]

I apologize Chris for diluting your thread. I will add that I did sign the petition. Out of respect to Peggy, I will not comment on this thread again as I previously told her.

[MyPemCharlie]

No need to apologize. I didn't mean to sound as critical as I probably did about going off topic. We've all seen a few threads go way off on a tangent here. Usually just means there's something the community finds more interesting to discuss than the original subject. Thanks for your support!