Help Stop Pet Stores and Puppy Mills

[MyPemCharlie]

I'm posting this in "Off-topic" because it applies to all breeds. However, there is a solid explanation in the Pembroke Welsh Corgi Club of America (PWCCA) why people should not sell to, purchase from, or breed dogs acquired from pet stores.

Link to PWCCA discussion on puppy mills, pet stores, and breeding code of ethics: PWCCA

I am disheartened to see that Pet Land, a large and growing chain store which sources animals from puppy mills through a broker (Hunte Corp.), is planning to open a new store here in Austin, TX this year. We already have a Pet Land in Georgetown, and suburban community north of Austin.

This is sad but also ironic, as Austin is one of the ASPCA communities in the Mission Orange project: a program designed to increase the adoption rate and decrease the intake rate of shelter/rescue animals. We euthanize 60% of shelter animals here every year. Opening a local pet store, where the least healthy pure bred (AKC and other) animals are sold without spay/neuter agreements goes against the very focus of the mission.

There is a petition targeted toward Austin's community leaders to stop the opening of Pet Land in Austin. If you agree with shutting down pet store chains which sell live puppies and kittens from mills, please help by signing this petition. (You do not have to live in Texas or even the USA to sign.)

Petition link to stop Pet Land from opening in Austin:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/Pet...Austin?page=10

If you have a petition weblink to stop a Pet Land (or other pet store chain) from opening in your area, please post the link here. I'll be happy to help your area by signing.

If we can put the pet shops out of business, the brokers and largest puppy mills will follow due to lack of demand.

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by MyPemCharlie

If we can put the pet shops out of business, the brokers and largest puppy mills will follow due to lack of demand.

Chris, there is the flaw in your logic. It is not the retail suppliers, or the brokers or the commercial kennels driving the market of demand; it is the consumer, the puppy buyers. In the time you have been on GoCorgi how many threads have you seen asking advice on if a corgi might be right for them or how or where to get a corgi puppy? In spite of all the recommendations, suggestions, advice on making a responsible, educated decisions; the majority of the time what is the outcome? They go to the first place they see an ad for puppies for sale, order from internet broker or internet store or some kitchen breeder who thinks everybody should have a corgi. Nine out of ten times, that is what happens. But once in a while, the advice does reach someone.

Until people begin putting half as much thought into adding a puppy or a dog to their home as they give buying the latest techno toy, game system, refrigerator or car; then there is always going to be a market for the pet store puppies and the brokers and commercial kennels will stay in business along with the kitchen breeders, internet store fronts, byb's, etc. Responsible Breeders cannot, nor would they really want to fill the demand for purebred puppies.

Shutting down pet stores and/or brokers and/or commercial kennels is not going to address where the problem really lies, and that is on the consumer/puppy buyer end. Shelters are full because of owner irresponsibility, retention and relinquishment problems, not because of a surplus on the supply side.

As a side note, corgis from responsible Breeders are the lowest percentage of dogs I am contacted about for rescue, just above them are pet shop purchases. The majority of the rescues I see come from horsey types who have corgi litters just because it is part of that culture, byb's, kitchen breeder types and other random type breeders.

This is not saying I support pet shop purchases, nothing could be further from the truth, just that if one wishes to address a problem, then the actual source of the problem needs to be identified and the true problem is John Q. Puppybuyer.

Debbie

[MyPemCharlie]

I agree with you that it is an uneducated buyer who creates demand for pet store puppies, keeping them in business. If the pet store buyer knew 1) the actual source of the animals, 2) knew that they were financially supporting the puppy mill industry, 3) knew that their pet was much more likely to have health and/or temperament problems and 4) knew that they were paying up to double the price as they could buy a premium quality animal from a reputable breeder, then no one would buy from pet stores. Mission accomplished.

However, it is an extraordinarily daunting task to reach and educate the entire buying public one person at a time. The more realistic way to approach the problem is from the supply side. If the educated public can take actions to keep pet stores out of their communities - effectively cutting off supply, then there is no opportunity for John Q Puppybuyer to make the uninformed decision.

Shelter/rescue numbers coming from original purchase at breeder, kitchen breeder, pet store, etc sources vary from area to area. You may not see huge pet store originated rescues in N. Carolina where there is one Pet Land in your state. I expect in Florida where there are 21 Pet Lands, or in Ohio where there are 29 Pet Lands, the % of shelter/rescue dogs from original pet store purchases is much higher.

I agree with much of what you said. There are only two of your points where I would disagree. One is your idea that there is not a supply side surplus of shelter animals. The other is that there is a flaw in my logic.

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by MyPemCharlie

I agree with you that it is an uneducated buyer who creates demand for pet store puppies, keeping them in business. If the pet store buyer knew 1) the actual source of the animals, 2) knew that they were financially supporting the puppy mill industry, 3) knew that their pet was much more likely to have health and/or temperament problems and 4) knew that they were paying up to double the price as they could buy a premium quality animal from a reputable breeder, then no one would buy from pet stores.

The message is out there. It is on forums such as this and Dogster and every breed list and every pet list every day of the week. It is on Animal Planet, and the news (national and local) and all other forms of media. The message shows up even in one's mailbox with monetary solicitations from HSUS, ASPCA, NSAL, PETA ... How in this day and age anyone cannot realize that the cute puppy in the pet shop came from a commercial kennel, well, they have to have their head in the sand. We are beaten with that message relentlessly. Furthermore, what do you think breeder referral people do? IF I had been paid a salary for all the hours I've spent on the phone and e-mails giving out the message, well I could go visit Michael in New Zealand.

Mission accomplished.

So why does John Q choose to ignore the advice given here when they get the answers to the questions they've asked?

However, it is an extraordinarily daunting task to reach and educate the entire buying public one person at a time.

That is the only way to do it and there has been great success with this method.

The more realistic way to approach the problem is from the supply side. If the educated public can take actions to keep pet stores out of their communities - effectively cutting off supply, then there is no opportunity for John Q Puppybuyer to make the uninformed decision.

Wrong, John Q Puppybuyer is just as likely to make an uniformed decision and impulse buy from their neighbor who just had a litter of puppies or noticing an ad on the bulletin board in the pet supply store or the local feed store or in my case, the local grocery store and post office.

Shelter/rescue numbers coming from original purchase at breeder, kitchen breeder, pet store, etc sources vary from area to area. You may not see huge pet store originated rescues in N. Carolina where there is one Pet Land in your state.

You forget how long I have been at this. During my tenure, there have been a lot more Pet Lands open in the state, along with Puppies to Guppies and several other chains of pet shops.

I expect in Florida where there are 21 Pet Lands, or in Ohio where there are 29 Pet Lands, the % of shelter/rescue dogs from original pet store purchases is much higher.

Being on the Corgi Rescue list, I can address that with some knowledge. FL, percentage wise on sources of rescue corgis is pretty much in line with what I see. Ohio, pet shop purchases would pale in comparison to those from Amish sources.

I agree with much of what you said. There are only two of your points where I would disagree. One is your idea that there is not a supply side surplus of shelter animals.

Nationwide, there really isn't an overpopulation problem, in spite of what HSUS and others might want you to believe. The numbers have been falling for years. In some areas of the country there are actual shortages of adoptable animals. Yes there are still dogs in shelters in the northeast, mainly bully types and black dogs and those imported from other areas of the country and even from out of the country. The southeast, yes there are pockets of overpopulation, TX is another state where than can be overpopulation pockets, so why are they importing small dogs from Mexico even into TX?

The other is that there is a flaw in my logic.

Patronek and some other studies would disagree. The source of shelter populations lies with owners. By shutting off supply, it isn't going to reduce the demand and another very messy can of worms can be opened there. Shelters, less than 20% of the dogs there are purebred.

Debbie

[MyPemCharlie]

Originally Posted by glencorgi

The message is out there. It is on forums such as this and Dogster and every breed list and every pet list every day of the week. It is on Animal Planet, and the news (national and local) and all other forms of media. The message shows up even in one's mailbox with monetary solicitations from HSUS, ASPCA, NSAL, PETA ... How in this day and age anyone cannot realize that the cute puppy in the pet shop came from a commercial kennel, well, they have to have their head in the sand. We are beaten with that message relentlessly. Furthermore, what do you think breeder referral people do? IF I had been paid a salary for all the hours I've spent on the phone and e-mails giving out the message, well I could go visit Michael in New Zealand.

So why does John Q choose to ignore the advice given here when they get the answers to the questions they've asked?

They don't ask. With all the info that is available, pet store buyers are not on the forums, or looking through "junk mail" flyers. They are not the people who do any homework. The believe the pet store clerk who tells them that the "quality" dog they're looking at comes from USDA licensed breeding facility. USDA sounds pretty good if you don't know that means under-regulated puppy mill. They don't ignore the information...they never sought it out to begin with. At some point their veterinarian or some friend tells them the real truth about the link between pet stores and puppy mills, usually after they have a problem.

Originally Posted by glencorgi

Wrong, John Q Puppybuyer is just as likely to make an uniformed decision and impulse buy from their neighbor who just had a litter of puppies or noticing an ad on the bulletin board in the pet supply store or the local feed store or in my case, the local grocery store and post office.

Buying from the neighbor who at least has healthy pets and does some puppy socialization may not be the optimum option, but it's still far better than supporting the neglect and horrible conditions that are rampant in puppy mill industry.

Originally Posted by glencorgi

During my tenure, there have been a lot more Pet Lands open in the state, along with Puppies to Guppies and several other chains of pet shops.

Sorry, the official PetLand website only shows one location in your state. Maybe they haven't updated their site...although they already show the store here that hasn't even opened yet.

Originally Posted by glencorgi

Being on the Corgi Rescue list, I can address that with some knowledge. FL, percentage wise on sources of rescue corgis is pretty much in line with what I see. Ohio, pet shop purchases would pale in comparison to those from Amish sources.

Fortunately, I think Corgis are not a top breed of choice for the puppy mills (and hopefully never will be). The AKC top 10 are much more likely to be milled, pet shopped and later end up in rescue. I was referring to all breeds, and to shelter relinquishments as well as rescue organizations. Many times the shelters will euthanize due to health or temperament and the dog has no chance at a rescue placement.

The Amish puppymills sell their leftovers (more than they place themselves) to Hunte Corp who is the broker/supplier for the pet stores. That is one rational for wanting to close off the pet store supply...to cut Hunte's demand and then cut puppy mill demand.

Originally Posted by glencorgi

Nationwide, there really isn't an overpopulation problem, in spite of what HSUS and others might want you to believe. The numbers have been falling for years. In some areas of the country there are actual shortages of adoptable animals. Yes there are still dogs in shelters in the northeast, mainly bully types and black dogs and those imported from other areas of the country and even from out of the country. The southeast, yes there are pockets of overpopulation, TX is another state where than can be overpopulation pockets, so why are they importing small dogs from Mexico even into TX?

Yes, thankfully the numbers have been falling for years! Now we only euthanize 5 to 6 millions dogs and cats every year (down from estimates as high as 17 million a decade ago). About 30% are dogs. That means we euthanize only 10 animals every minute, every day, 365 days a year. Sounds like too many animals and not enough human homes to me.

Originally Posted by glencorgi

Patronek and some other studies would disagree. The source of shelter populations lies with owners. By shutting off supply, it isn't going to reduce the demand and another very messy can of worms can be opened there. Shelters, less than 20% of the dogs there are purebred.

Debbie

Patronek did not say there were not too many animals and too few homes, although he does not like the phrase "pet overpopulation". I do agree with Patronek (and you) that a large part of the shelter/rescue problem is with owner relinquishment. The problem is twofold. Owner relinquishment and too many unwanted animals. It's not one or the other.

[LaRogue]

To throw my two cents in...

I feel the problem lies with the BIG BUSINESS of pets. I am shocked by the number of people I come across (and know) who want a dog, not because they want a healthy, happy puppy to become a member of their family, but rather because they think it's an easy way to make money. I think the efforts to educate the public on responsible ownership/breeding have made great progress-with those who may not have known better and WANT to be responsible. As for the rest, I don't think all the legislation or education in the world will make a dent, as long as it is seen as profitable and an easy way to make a buck.

As for pet stores, I know as many as 15 years ago, some of them started trying to buy local bred puppies (byb) rather than from puppy mills, in an effort to avoid the puppy mill PR. I stopped going to pet stores that sell animals, but when I did, I was seeing a different corgi every week. Maybe that has changed now, as it has been several years in I've been in that type pet shop. I can only hope.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by MyPemCharlie

Fortunately, I think Corgis are not a top breed of choice for the puppy mills (and hopefully never will be). The AKC top 10 are much more likely to be milled, pet shopped and later end up in rescue. I was referring to all breeds, and to shelter relinquishments as well as rescue organizations. Many times the shelters will euthanize due to health or temperament and the dog has no chance at a rescue placement.

And some shelters won't work with rescue and won't let breed rescue take the purebreds out. They see them as "money makers".

Yes, thankfully the numbers have been falling for years! Now we only euthanize 5 to 6 millions dogs and cats every year (down from estimates as high as 17 million a decade ago). About 30% are dogs. That means we euthanize only 10 animals every minute, every day, 365 days a year. Sounds like too many animals and not enough human homes to me.

Most of those dogs are adults, and many are middle to senior aged dogs. Trust me dogs in that age group are hard to place. I have 4 corgis 7+ years here I'm fostering. I've talked with several people about them but they want younger dogs.

It's the same with shelter dogs. So the ones that don't get placed and aren't lucky enough to get into rescue and a foster home get euthanized. It's not the lack of homes necessarily but the choices people make.

Peggy

[Michael Romanos]

There are very few if any pure-bred Corgis sold from pet stores or vet clinics in New Zealand over the last fifteen years or so. The last I heard was two years ago and the five puppies were actually Pem-Cardi crosses unbeknown (and probably still is) to the buyers.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

There are very few if any pure-bred Corgis sold from pet stores or vet clinics in New Zealand over the last fifteen years or so. The last I heard was two years ago and the five puppies were actually Pem-Cardi crosses unbeknown (and probably still is) to the buyers.

In the US there are a lot of pet stores that still sell puppies of all breeds and mixes.

Here Vet's do not sell pets of any kind. (Although there are vet clinics in some pet supply stores.)

Peggy

[Chip's Mom]

My vet will take a whole litter of kittens, give them their shots and sell them for the price of their shots and she has great success in finding them good homes. She keeps them in a big cat play cage in the reception area of her office and will only take one litter at a time. It would be nice if more vets would do that with kittens. She usually has a waiting list.

[Heatheranne]

Whether it will help or not, I will certainly sign the petition... I would love to see the puppy mill chain broken on any (or every) link possible.

As the owner of a brood bitch rescued from her puppy mill 'home', I am continually amazed at the physical and emotional toll that environment placed on our Wendy. For example, we had her weeks before she wagged... 4 months before she would accept food from the table, 9 months before she gave a kiss, 11 months before she would enter a 'dead end' room such as a bedroom or bathroom. She remains incontinent from overbreeding despite surgery, proin, estrogen, and herbal remedies and she is barkless because her vocal cords were severed.

Our vet tells far worse stories of rescued mill dogs. Sadly, these are the 'lucky' dogs that survived... many don't.

Whatever it takes!

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Chip's Mom

My vet will take a whole litter of kittens, give them their shots and sell them for the price of their shots and she has great success in finding them good homes. She keeps them in a big cat play cage in the reception area of her office and will only take one litter at a time. It would be nice if more vets would do that with kittens. She usually has a waiting list.

IMO, that's not the same as selling like in a pet store. What your vet is doing is more like rescue. Takes the cats in, vets them and adopts them out for the cost of vetting. Much like rescue groups do.

He's not doing it to make a profit, or add to his income, he's helping them find new homes.

Peggy

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Heatheranne

Whether it will help or not, I will certainly sign the petition... I would love to see the puppy mill chain broken on any (or every) link possible.

If you're going to sign a petiton it needs to be on physical paper. I understand that internet petitions don't hold much weight. To begin with they often have names on them from any and everywhere and the local governments don't much care what John Q. Public from 2 states away thinks. It's much better to either write letters to the legislators involved or to sign a physical petition.

She remains incontinent from overbreeding despite surgery, proin, estrogen, and herbal remedies

That can happen due to spaying too, it might not be due to overbreeding.

... and she is barkless because her vocal cords were severed.

Her vocal cords were not "severed" they were clipped. They are not cut all the way through.

By the way many responsible breeders who show thier dogs also "debark" their dogs. It keeps the peace and the neighbors don't complain about barking. The dogs don't really care, they still bark but don't get yelled at for barking. It's really not uncommon in the show world and in particular with some breeds.

First let me say I am not in favor of commercial breeders, but I do realize that when there are tougher laws and regulations for them it is going to affect the responsible breeders too. I for one do not want to have to have a seperate whelping building to raise my puppies in. I much prefer they be in my home. I do not what to have to keep my dogs in kennel runs because the regulations say that where my dogs are must be able to be hosed down. I sure don't want my kitchen to be on a concreate slab able to be hosed down.

And maybe a good discussion topic could be that we each our definitation of a puppy mill.

Peggy

[Michael Romanos]

Peggy seems to think that there are not many pet stores in New Zealand. In the five towns that make up most of the Wellington region where I live, there are 15. That covers a population of around 400,000.

[Chip's Mom]

Her vocal cords were not "severed" they were clipped. They are not cut all the way through.
 
By the way many responsible breeders who show thier dogs also "debark" their dogs. It keeps the peace and the neighbors don't complain about barking. The dogs don't really care, they still bark but don't get yelled at for barking. It's really not uncommon in the show world and in particular with some breeds.
 

That just amazes me - A dog cannot be spayed or neutered to compete in shows but yet they can have their vocal cords clipped. The more I hear and learn about the world of show, the more I am mystified about some of the rules, etc.

In my personal opinion, I don't think you can categorize puppy mills, byb's and show people into their own categorys. I think each should be judged on an individual basis by merit. I do believe that if it were possible to look at some puppy mills set ups, show people and byb's would fall into this category as well as some byb's would fall into the category of show people as far as taking care of their dogs. Maybe people can justify having their dogs debarked as the dogs don't mind, reminds of not long ago when people in mental institutions were sterilized because of their condition. Maybe not a really good comparison but it is more of a convenience thing for the owners then anything else. If you are going to have a dog then you should take into consideration your surroundings and how the dog will effect the neighbors before you purchase one and yes if you have multiple dogs then they would be noisier then if you only had one and you should live out in the country where they can bark without affecting the neighbors. To me that is a selfish thing to do to a dog just for convenience sake for the owner. No matter what we do in this life, there is always some way to justify our actions via right or wrong it doesn't make the action any different.

I will also add that I am totally against puppy mills and I signed the petition.