Your Corgi forever

[MyPemCharlie]

Wow Peggy! That's great. I'm happy to hear that Blaze is doing so well. I'm sure you are quite proud of him (and have every right to be).

[MyPemCharlie]

In the news today....

A woman just sold her California home to raise the $50,000 price tag to have her departed pit bull cloned in Korea. She now has 5 cloned puppies. Isn't there some dilemna if you actually only wanted "one carbon copy"? Which puppy does she keep...and which four to sell probably for over >$12,500 each (will she make enough to buy another house)? The article didn't actually say whether she intends to keep all five or not.

Booger the pit bull is back! All five of him... - Yahoo! News

[LaRogue]

And they're all gonna have the name Booger Sometimes (alot of times) I don't know what people are thinking!

[Michael Romanos]

I have to think hard of any downside to this.

[LaRogue]

I have to think hard of any downside to this.

I don't. It's unethical and on shaky moral ground as well. what abouot all of the "deformed mistakes" that occur? Cloning complex animals just brings it one step closer to cloning people. As someone else noted, just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

[MyPemCharlie]

"Independent tests confirmed the 2005 dog cloning was genuine, and Lee's team has since cloned more than 20 canines.

But RNL Bio said that its cloning was the first successful commercial cloning of a canine."

"RNL Bio charges up to $150,000 for dog cloning but will receive just a third of that sum from McKinney because she is the first customer and helped with publicity, said company head Ra Jeong-chan.

Ra said his firm eventually aims to clone about 300 dogs per year and is also interested in duplicating camels for customers in the Middle East."

These quotes are from a different news source: Now: Missing your dog? Clone a new one! | dog, mckinney, booger : TheMonitor.com


So twenty failed attempts to get one "success"...at a cost of $150,000? So now the scientist plans to roll out 300 a year. Does that mean 6000 attempts? And what about the unknown future health or temperament of these science experiments? There is no guarantee that the same genes make the "same dog". If each of those 5 puppies is put in a different home, you will have 5 different dogs with 5 different personalities and 5 different health records I would expect. You can't control for environment, so you can't expect to get "your deceased dog" back. I don't like it.

[Michael Romanos]

Cloning is much more accurate at getting a more perfect dog like the close-to perfect dog of its parent/s (if that is the case), than through usual breeding methods. So cloning is not likely to create "mistakes" like that which can be produced through usual breeding methods. In other words again, it is the breeder who will make mistahes in cloning not the quirks of fate through usual breeding methods.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

Cloning is much more accurate at getting a more perfect dog like the close-to perfect dog of its parent/s (if that is the case), than through usual breeding methods. So cloning is not likely to create "mistakes" like that which can be produced through usual breeding methods. In other words again, it is the breeder who will make mistahes in cloning not the quirks of fate through usual breeding methods.

Michael the "mistakes" come from the dogs being cloned. They are not dogs bred to the standard. They are not being cloned by breeders who know the standard. They are beloved pets being cloned by their owners who have no idea about standards or what faults ("mistakes") their dogs may have.

So, IMO, cloining is not a responsible method of reproducing pets.

And I agree with whoever said, you are not going to get an exact replica of the dog you are cloning. The personality is so much what makes you love your dog. Not just the outward physical appearance. The environment and growing up experience shapes that personality. No two dogs ever have the exact same experience, even littermates. Therefore you will not get an exact replica of your dog. So IMO, it's not better than breeding.

Peggy

[Michael Romanos]

Not everybody wants a dog for breed standard purposes - in fact very few make this a requirement. So, Peggy whatever the reason for cloning is fine by me other than for deliberately producing a mad rampant killer a la Hitler from little cloned Hitlers.

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

Not everybody wants a dog for breed standard purposes - in fact very few make this a requirement. So, Peggy whatever the reason for cloning is fine by me other than for deliberately producing a mad rampant killer a la Hitler from little cloned Hitlers.

So producing puppies just to produce puppies is ok with you? That's what your "Santa" breeder is doing. They're doing the same thing cloning as the casual breeders are doing. Just producing puppies.

IMO there is no good reason to clone dogs or cats. Or maybe not even other animals. We don't yet know enough about this.

Peggy

[Chip's Mom]

I don't think this lady cloned her dog just to have puppies, It was a psychological thing. I can understand someone being so emotionally attached to their dog that they would go to the expense of having their dog cloned after it passed on. It is kind of like an extension of their beloved dog and they feel like they have a part of their dog and it brings comfort to them. Now I am not saying that I agree or disagree with cloning, I am simply saying that I can understand where this lady was coming from and why she did it. I will add that I think sometimes people go to the extreme to push their point of view of the appropriate breeding practices onto other people. Some people really don't care a flip if their dog fits someone elses standard or the breed standard as long as they are happy with their dog. I don't agree with inbreeding either but people that do it justify it by saying they are improving the breed standard.

[Michael Romanos]

Peggy - if you can't see or appreciate the difference between someone cloning to produce another pet dog as similar as possible to the last pet dog he/she had, and breeding to standard, then its sadder than i thought. It is worth repeating that the vast majority of people get a dog or dogs simply as pets and not for show standard purposes which doesn't in any way deny that breeding to standard is important especially if it always involves the soundness and health of the breed and the individual dogs. There are horses for courses and dogs for logs.
Close related breeding and inbreeding is rampant within the dog breeding to standard circles. My Taylor has the same greatgrandfather on both sides of his parents.

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by Chip's Mom

I don't think this lady cloned her dog just to have puppies, It was a psychological thing.

She wanted the dog she lost back, but now there are five of him.
[
[quote]I can understand someone being so emotionally attached to their dog that they would go to the expense of having their dog cloned after it passed on. It is kind of like an extension of their beloved dog and they feel like they have a part of their dog and it brings comfort to them./QUOTE]

Theoretically though, a clone is supposed to be identical to the original. Now when the copy isn't identical, that raises questions.

Some people really don't care a flip if their dog fits someone elses standard or the breed standard as long as they are happy with their dog.

Okay, the standard is important to EVERYONE who consciously made the decision to have a corgi as their breed of choice. Why? Because - you liked the look, the personality, the size, the temperament. That is what the standard describes. It is what makes a corgi a corgi and not a terrier or spaniel or another breed. So whether you realize it or not, the standard is important to you just as it is to someone breeding for the show ring. You want your corgi to look like a corgi and act like a corgi.

I don't agree with inbreeding either but people that do it justify it by saying they are improving the breed standard.

The standard can't be improved, it describes and is the blueprint for the "perfect" specimen of a breed. Inbreeding sets traits, such as good shoulder angulation, sound hips, correct fronts, etc. Yes, if there are health issues, then those can be doubled up on too (negative and positive), but continual outcrossing you lose qualities that define a breed (type) and you don't know what negative health issues you might be doubling up on either. Half brother to half sister breedings can have lower inbreeding coefficients than cousin to cousin sometimes (there is a mathematical formula which computes the inbreeding coefficient).

Cloning is pure science. Breeding, while there is a lot of science involved, it has elements that cloning doesn't and never will have, art.

Debbie

[Peggy]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

Peggy - if you can't see or appreciate the difference between someone cloning to produce another pet dog as similar as possible to the last pet dog he/she had, and breeding to standard, then its sadder than i thought.

You know Michael I'm really tired of when I give my opinion, which is just as good as yours that you have to belittle me. WHY do you have to be so hurtful and nasty? On every other list or forum I'm on the moderators keep themselves above that. They are there to keep the forum/list a welcome and place for everyone.

And why is my opinon sad?

I can see the senimentality, but it is not the same. You do not get your dog back. So IMO, it's not any different than breeding. You don't even get one that looks exactly like the dog you lost. Even if it does look like the one you had the personality won't be the same. So IMO, that defeats the purpose and to me it's the same as just putting puppies on the ground.

I have lost many dogs over the years. NONE of them can ever be replaced. Yes, I would LOVE to have them back. That isn't possible, even with cloning. I can get the same breed, and some similarities, but I can also get that by breeding.

So no, I can't see the value in cloning. It does not give you an exact replica and it does not replace the dog you lost.

It is worth repeating that the vast majority of people get a dog or dogs simply as pets and not for show standard purposes which doesn't in any way deny that breeding to standard is important especially if it always involves the soundness and health of the breed and the individual dogs.

As Debbie points out the standard is important because it's that standard that makes a corgi a corgi. Their looks, their traits, their temperments. Without standards you have mutts.

There are horses for courses and dogs for logs.

What?

Close related breeding and inbreeding is rampant within the dog breeding to standard circles. My Taylor has the same greatgrandfather on both sides of his parents.

The same grandfather on both sides is not inbreeding. That is linebreeding and it's how you set type. That is considered responsible breeding in the dog fancy. All over the world.

Inbreeding has it's place too and is a useful tool when used by a responsible, knowlegeable breeder.

I still see no useful purpose to cloning. I don't see how it's any better than breeding. And I don't see how someone who has the money doing it is any better than a casual breeder. Yes, I see the senimentality but it's not the same dog. That is impossible.

Peggy

[jakort1]

Cloning is a scientific tool, without which medically, agriculturally, etc. we might not be where we are today. I always keep this in mind that technically there can be some good come out of it.

Would I want an exact clone of Will, heavens no! Even if I could be guaranteed that the clone would have the same loving eyes and wagging tail. Where's the unexpected joy in seeing how your animal matures. If someone wants to buy a cloned animal who can stop them?

Cloning will not give you an identical dog, cow, etc the personality will be different (would you raise a pup the same now as you did 20 years ago). Coloration might be extremely close, but, there is still the chance that coat coloration would be different (I can't remember who, but, someone told me that guessing how a merle pattern will turn out is next to impossible and I'd refer you to Debbie to discuss this in detail since I believe that she's bred blues before).

As far as when I get another dog, I'd go to a breeder that knows the standard and has great dogs...hmmm, I guess I did that