No tails a hindrance??

[Michael Romanos]

An artlce in the latest New Zealand Kennel Club magazine, written by a NZ agility competitor I have never met, says that a Corgi is handicapped in agility because they are tail-less and therefore lack the balance that tailed dogs possess. I don't know why this amateur writer signalled out Corgis because my Taylor has been the only Corgi competitor in NZ for the last nearly three years. Has any Go Corgi member heard of this kind of theory? Any comments?

[Cardiguy]

Tell the writer some corgis comes with a tail- a big bushy thick foxlike appendage that can sweep any floor clean with one swish. The Cardigan of course. Although this huge appendage could hinder agility (lol)

[pmavrich]

There are many other breeds that compete without tails ... My Corgis are Nimble (or at least they think so ...)

I always thought it was their short legs, but Molsen's legs help him corner quickly & duck through the tunnels.

[glencorgi]

Yea, yea, yea, I've heard it. Same as "corgis" aren't good swimmers because they don't a tail for a rudder. The writer shows as much depth in investigation and researching his/her topic as a lot of other writers. First, as Cardiguy says it should be a no brainer to acknowledge and mention there are two breeds of corgis. Cardigans may get dismissed as being contenders in agility, they have on this forum anyway, because of their structure and being heavier built all way around. Okay, did a little research in the archives of another list and found a post I did in 2001.

In 1997 Becky (PWC - Tafanwr Kennels?) and Ken Boyd won the USDAA Grand Prix
National in the 12" division. Later that year she won the AKC National and
became the first and only dog to win the Triple Crown of Agility. (She won
the 12" Division Nationals in AKC, NADAC, and USDAA).

In April of 1998 there were six corgis that had achieved MAD titles.

The 1998 USDAA Grand Prix National 12" Division, if my memory is remaining
accurate, <VBG> was described as a "corgi orgy" with something like six to
eight of the top ten placers being corgis. The winner was Parker (CWC) with
Chris Lewis Brown. There was also another Cardigan among those top ten
placers with the others being Pems.

October 1998 five of the USDAA Agility's top ten were corgis (4 - PWC, 1 CWC).

Due to time constraints I have, regretfully, had to omit many, many, many
noteworthy accomplishments from listers here.

Fast forward to 2001 - a report from Bonnie Hansen on the AKC Agility
Nationals was titled *CORGIS KICK BUTT!!* For me the title is self
explanatory.

Anita noted:
>But also germane might be the issues raised in the
>debate currently raging (and I DO mean raging <g>) on and about the
>Agiledogs list about jump heights, in which the KINDEST thing said about
>either type of corgi is a comment by one individual that Cardigan teams
>lack "the advantages that my dogs and I have."*

I find this interesting as the recently MACH 2 titled, Cricket is a Cardigan.
(Also maybe of interest, is the fact her breeder's dogs do consistently well
in conformation, including Specialties, and in all performance they
undertake.)
------------------
At this time there were 3 major agility organizations, in order of difficulty - NADAC, AKC, and USDAA. USDAA would be very comparable to what is being run in NZ as far as agility goes. It should also be noted that this information is about 6 years out of date and many of the corgis mentioned here have gone way beyond the titles earned at this point. Cricket, the Cardigan mentioned above now is a MACH (Master Agility Champion)6 (at least, I believe). My (PWC) Oberon's younger sister at age 11 is a MACH6. As I understand the requirements for the different numbers behind the MACH title, a dog has to qualify for the MACH title the number of times after the MACH. No small task to earn a MACH, let alone a second, third, fourth, etc. one. On the Performance Corgis list there are 650 plus members from seasoned, hard core competitors to novices. While both breeds of corgis are represented, the majority of the corgis are Pembrokes of course. In the US at least, Pembrokes hold their own competitively with any other breed in agility.

Debbie

[Michael Romanos]

I actually sent in a Letter to the Editor yesterday pointing out that the writer of the article had an apparant anti-docking message in her article but there seemd no proof that tail-less Pem Corgis are handicapped in agility because they dominate the mini equivalent competitions in the USA against tailed dogs of roughly similar size and in fact are generally superior to their cousin, the tailed Cardigan Corgi. As well several Pems competed in the 2006 world champs in Europe and all performed exceptionally well in the mini dogs competitions.

I believe that the ultimate test of dog sports is Greyhound racing, and Greyhounds with docked tails seem not to be disadvantaged on the racing circuit against the dominant tailed Greyhounds.

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

I actually sent in a Letter to the Editor yesterday pointing out that the writer of the article had an apparant anti-docking message in her article but there seemd no proof that tail-less Pem Corgis are handicapped in agility because they dominate the mini equivalent competitions in the USA against tailed dogs of roughly similar size and in fact are generally superior to their cousin, the tailed Cardigan Corgi.

I wouldn't go so far to say as they are generally superior to the Cardigans. There are more Pems overall, so there are more participating in various venues and so more getting titles.

Debbie

PS: One of the Cardigans that was a part of the "corgi orgy" USDAA Nationals is now 10 1/2. He's just added another title to the list behind his name. Canfield Aragorn Coppertone ADCH Bronze, LAA Bronze, APD Bronze, TM Gold,
SACH Bronze, SCH Gold, GCH Silver, RCH Bronze, JCH Bronze, ASD Gold, AKD
Silver, AGD Silver, ATD, AJD Bronze, ARCHX, RL1X, RL2X, RL3X, UD, RN, MX,
MXJ, MXP2, MJP2, EAC, EGC, OJC

(Registries: USDAA, APDT, AKC, NADAC)

[MattC]

I am not sure that dog's tails actually come into play regarding agility and balance. I know cats use their tails to help right themselves if they fall. In either case I have a cardigan corgi and he is a bit of a clutz.

[Michael Romanos]

I know that the Pems are generally faster and quicker reacting than the Cardis, there were no Cardis at the 2006 world champs, and the only Cardis to have been in agility in NZ were slow and non competitive. But I would love to be proved wrong - that Cardis can generally either hold their own against pems or are actually better performed.

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

I know that the Pems are generally faster and quicker reacting than the Cardis, there were no Cardis at the 2006 world champs, and the only Cardis to have been in agility in NZ were slow and non competitive.

I don't think you should base your conclusions about Cardigans' abilities on what you've seen in the microcosm of NZ. You'll be doing the same thing as the author of the article who said "corgis are at a disadvantage in agility because they don't have tails."

But I would love to be proved wrong - that Cardis can generally either hold their own against pems or are actually better performed.

That's already been done if you'll read what I've written above. There are many Cardigans that can more than hold their own against some Pembrokes and actually beat them on a regular basis. HOWEVER, there are variables which apply to ANY breed - much has to do with the individual dog and the trainer/handler. There's also the number factor. There are more Pembrokes than Cardigans and more Pembrokes running in agility than there are Cardigans, so of course it will appear Pembrokes have an advantage.

Debbie

[Michael Romanos]

It is not a numbers game if Pems are achieving better results - there are sufficient Cardis in agility in the USA to gauge whether Cardis are as fast and athletic in relation to the Pem. I don't really think so. Cardis have the tail but as previously mentioned, this may not be any advantage. Cardis are stockier, heavier and they have a different front and front feet conformation - maybe these physical things together with a slightly different mental attitude, makes them generally not as agility excellent as the Pems.
We know they dont generally run as fast or are quite as busy as the Pem.

Here is what Linda, an American in Maryland has to say (Linda has two Pems and two Australian Shepherds involved in agility):: Pems move better in agility than do most Cardis.

[glencorgi]

Originally Posted by Michael Romanos

It is not a numbers game if Pems are achieving better results - there are sufficient Cardis in agility in the USA to gauge whether Cardis are as fast and athletic in relation to the Pem. I don't really think so.

In the US Cardigans are titling as often and as easily as Pembrokes do. There are brags the first of every week on SC-L, Performance Corgis, Corgi-L of new titles and legs earned by Cardigans, as well as Pembrokes. One will hear about more Pembroke wins than one would Cardigans as there are not as many actively competing comparitively speaking. Of the Cardigans competing, they're doing as well as Pembrokes on any given weekend.

Cardis have the tail but as previously mentioned, this may not be any advantage. Cardis are stockier, heavier and they have a different front and front feet conformation - maybe these physical things together with a slightly different mental attitude, makes them generally not as agility excellent as the Pems.

The conformation of the front in some ways may make turning easier for a CWC than a PWC. There are Cardigans around that are as high drive as any Pembroke one will meet. Again, I'll go back to the attitude of an individual dog. Among the elite competitors of both breeds, either one on any given day can give the other a run for its money.

We know they dont generally run as fast or are quite as busy as the Pem.

As far as being as fast as Pembrokes, from what I am seeing in my dog lots where both breeds are out together on a daily basis, I'll have to respectfully beg to differ. I also have several Cardigans that will out busy a Pembroke any day. Again, your experience seeing Cardigans in agility is VERY limited and given the handler, not suprising you would have a limited perspective.

Here is what Linda, an American in Maryland has to say (Linda has two Pems and two Australian Shepherds involved in agility):: Pems move better in agility than do most Cardis.

I know Linda from several other corgi lists and from GC. Some Cardigan trainers and handlers might disagree with her.

Debbie

[Michael Romanos]

Debbie - Despite my limited knowledge, I have spoken with two breeders in NZ who have bred both Pems and Cardis and both breeders live in farming communities and they have seen Pems and Cardis doing farm work, and they say that generally Pems are quicker and more agile than are Cardis and of the two breeds, are more likely to excel at agility.

Another pointer to this as well as the question of tail or no tail, the world records per breed for the 60 pole weave has the Pembroke Corgi ahead of the Cardigan Corgi.